Colonel Stauffenberg and Tom Cruise´s movie

Non-naval discussions about the Second World War. Military leaders, campaigns, weapons, etc.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:08 pm

This is link that takes you to REAL GERMAN HEROES:

http://www.alanhamby.com/aces.html


Enjoy it!
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

Orville H. Larson
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Post by Orville H. Larson » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:08 am

Thanks, Karl, for this interesting site on the Tiger tank.

The men mentioned here were tough, up-and-at-'em types indeed. From Franz Staudegger with his 35 tank kills to Kurt Knispel with his 168 (!), these men knew how to handle tanks in battle. (I'm glad I wasn't in a Sherman or a Churchill that had to come up against them!)

German armor was of markedly superior quality to Allied tanks. The American standard--the Sherman--was an adequate tank, while the German stuff was excellent.

Some believe that the Russian T-34 was the "best" tank of WW2, with its ruggedness, simplicity of construction, and sloped armor. It was also uncomfortable (even dangerous) for its crew.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:01 pm

This is another link that takes you to another group of REAL GERMAN HEROES, this time Luftwaffe pilots that, as a matter of fact, overshadows ALL the allied air aces from WWI to the second Gulf War:

http://www.acepilots.com/german/ger_aces.html

None of them were fooling around and wasting their time with ill concieved conspiracies but fighting their country´s enemies.

Enjoy the site.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:34 pm

Another link that shows us REAL GERMAN HEROES:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aces_of_the_Deep

Real aces!

But, at the end, the real hero, as always, is the humble foot soldier or sailor that is annonymus but stands to the last for his fatherland (or motherland if it´s Russia).
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:24 pm

Ulrich

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José M. Rico
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Post by José M. Rico » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:00 am

Ulrich Rudofsky wrote:Accident among extras ......... http://www.spiegel.de/videoplayer/0,6298,20809,00.html
So, they fell from a truck and got injured?

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:17 am

Yes. Not as bad as the press first reported. Also there is the implication that the film making is jinxed or hexed. :cool:
Ulrich

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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:51 pm

These news reminds a very sad and tragic accident on a movie set:

Do you remember actor Vic Morrow, the sergeant in the classic TV series "Combat"?
He got killed along with two Vietnamese children while filming the movie "The Twilight Zone" in 1983 directed by Steven Spielberg. He died when struck by the main rotor of a UH-1H Huey chopper...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Terje Langoy
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Post by Terje Langoy » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:51 pm

After I saw the movie about Colonel Stauffenberg yesterday, I can't see any reason to agree with your view of him being a traitor, Karl. He did not appear as a traitor in my eyes but more of an officer that gradually got more and more fed up with the "inhumane actions" that occured around him and finally decided to do something about it. After all, he was in a position to do so. His last actions could be seen as an act on moral grounds. Humanity. Conscience. He tried to stop the greatest murderer in history and that's what makes him a hero.

I would further say that it is completely meaningless to use the entire war as an arguement for your view. To say he should have acted in 1940 is indeed ignorant. The war wasn't lost in 1940. And how on earth should he know how the war was going to end back then? At a time were the real crimes of World War Two were yet to come?

The cruelties of war usually don't call for action as long as they're distant. But when they affect you directly... The things that I think prompted Colonel Stauffenberg into doing what he did were the things that occured close to him. That affected him directly. In one of the scenes in the movie, you see Colonel Stauffenberg listen to the words of a woman that saw a child being brutally executed. These are the sort of things that in the end result in conspiracy plots.

If people act for a cause higher than themselves, (lets call it conscience) does that make them heroes? If I were to follow your logic here, Karl, then we could call every German that earlier supported Hitler, military as well as civilians, traitors once they saw the real nature of Hitler and had a change of mind. I disagree with that view!

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:01 pm

Life is not simple and it was very complicated then, even for a 10 year old boy: some relatives in prison, some raving Nazis, some doing their honorable duty, some just oblivious. It takes a long time for honorable people to get really mad and desparate and to execute a "treasonous" act considering the violent consequences inflicted on your family and friends. I would still count Stauffenberg as a greater hero than someone who garnered a Ritterkreuz bei sinking the HMS Hood or driving a tank into the enemy line.
Ulrich

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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:26 pm

.....more good news for people who are pushing the Tom Cruise movie "Valkyrie" ....lawyer sues United Artists for damages for accidents.....good advertising for the movie is guaranteed. Jerks like Cruise always get superb and beneficial press coverage. http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0 ... 08,00.html

PS: Uniform for Oberst is not correct in the photo.
Ulrich

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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:37 pm

I stand my ground. Stauffenberg´s motives are often cited as moral. Why is it more moral to kill Hitler in 1944 than in 1940? In 1940 the Germans were winning, so there was no moral need to kill him? But in 1944 they were losing so there was a moral need to atempt against him?

No: the thruth is that 1940 (or earlier) was on the same moral need to dispose of Adolf. Stauffenberg acted in 1944 because, as quoted, the Germans were losing and the Prussian elite was in danger of being anihilated. That´s why he and Beck and the lot acted. If he was concerned for those inocent victims of nazism then 1939 or 1940 was a good moment to kill him.

And the plan was lousy at it´s best.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Ulrich Rudofsky
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Post by Ulrich Rudofsky » Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:44 pm

.......you obviously were not there and you need to learn a lot about human nature .... Germany...... hindsight is always 100% perfect :angel:
Ulrich

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Terje Langoy
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Post by Terje Langoy » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:29 am

The conspiracy wasn't just an overnight idea because Gemany was losing the war. If that had been the case, then what would be gained from killing Hitler? Saved from annihilation? By whom? No, this was a series of events that in the end would culminate in a response. Events that occured right in front of Colonel Stauffenberg. Not in the streets of Stalingrad or under the bombs falling in London. They occured before his very eyes. His actions were the result of a tolerance being tested again and again until it broke, a very basic feature in the human nature and I'm surprised that you don't see it. Imagine the following:

You are a newly graduated officer and have been assigned to enlist aboard a submarine. You know this is a submarine and its built for war. People are most likely going to die when you and the others aboard do your duty. But this is of course a thought you have to repel if you wish to continue as an officer aboard this submarine. So, you set out to sea and search for a victim. Finally a ship appear in your periscope. You take your position, calculate target data and launch the torpedo. Boom! Torpedo strike home and the ship goes down. But then, after the ship have left the surface, the captain orders you to take the submarine up to surface position and assemble a team of men. Ok, he's the captain so you do as your told. You put your faith in the fact that he knows what he's doing. You surface the boat, you assemble the men. Suddenly, and to your great surprise, the captain order the men to pick up their arms and shoot every living, breathing survivor at the scene. This is wrong, you think. Well, don't worry. You have just suffered a stroke of conscience, a touch of humanity. Are you a traitor if you decide to remove your captain from command after this?

If I were to follow the logic in your argumentation, Karl, then you are a traitor if you do that. You have betrayed your captain, betrayed his trust and confidence. It doesn't matter if you had "noble reasons" because if that had truly been the case, then why didn't you remove him before you set sail? Well, you didn't know what he was going to do back then, did you? Some things actually have to happen before you react..!

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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:21 pm

The American military has a saying: "You are here not to reason why but to do or die".
Military officers are instruments of a country´s policy, no matter the regime they are serving: they are like a shovel, a bulldozer or a police car. They are used to fight wars and protect the state. Their inteligence and iniciative are to be used at the service of that state, not to be fooling around planing to plant bombs at their leaders HQ.
At the beginning of this thread I used the following example:


"London, between September 1940 and May 1941. All of Europe is on Hitler´s powerfull grip: France, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Poland and many other lesser states are conquered.
The U-Boats attack mercant shipping and England is at the verge of collapse.
The Blitz rages over British cities killing thousands.
No one knows if the United States would enter the war. Japan is more than a year away to attack Pearl Harbor.
Churchill rejects an offering of Hitler for peace.

Then a British senior officer came, with a strong belief that if England makes peace with Hitler then thousands of innocents would live instead of dying; that England could survive those dark days and live in peace with the nazis on the other side of the Channel.

So he came to a meeting of military staff with Churchill with a bomb in a briefcase and, minutes before the detonation, runs away after planted the device. The briefcase explodes but fails in killing Churchill."


Could that guy be called a hero? What would British History call such a person? What would western History call such an officer?

Even, if it is succesfull and kills Churchill: can he be called a hero?

43,000 thousand people died during the Blitz. One million lost their homes. Churchill´s death would have prevent that. Again: Could this officer be called a hero?

Heores are the guys that fought for their countries: Great Britain, Canada, Japan, USA, Germany, Russia, India, China, etc. etc. And as an example I sent the following links:

http://www.alanhamby.com/aces.html

http://www.acepilots.com/german/ger_aces.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aces_of_the_Deep

These guys fought and died for their country (no matter who the stupid dictator was) instead of fooling around with such a latinamerican activity as trying to accomplish a coup d´etat...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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