Naval History Forums

... in, let's say, twenty year's time?

And who controls/commands it?

If Europe is to function as a nation state, it must first have legitimacy. My vote is for Britain not to be part of a pan-European government but to be an independent country with its own navy.

Unless its called Marine Nationale the French will never go for it.

The French probably would go for it if the EU comes under their control. Our Minister for Disarmament, Liam Fox, has already been party to a proposal for French use of British aircraft carriers, even though he has now been forced to backtrack. But what else could you expect from Blue Labour?

They'll go for it.......if the EU is renamed "France".

I can't see that happening, as France becomes more marginalised by more members joining the EU and competing with the French for the monies kindly supplied by the British and German taxpayers.

And with Turkey now apparently due to join the EU will not even be just a European empire, but stretching into Asia as well........

RF wrote:I can't see that happening, as France becomes more marginalised by more members joining the EU and competing with the French for the monies kindly supplied by the British and German taxpayers.

And with Turkey now apparently due to join the EU will not even be just a European empire, but stretching into Asia as well........

So the French don't pay anything? The British and Germans support everyone else?

The French are net receivers, along with all the other EU member countries except Germany and Britain who are the net contributors. The figures for how much Britain pays in is apparently of the order of some £23 billion, of which approximately £7 billion comes back in the form of grants and subsidies. The exact figures are secret, but Germany is the biggest contributor of all.

RF wrote:The French are net receivers, along with all the other EU member countries except Germany and Britain who are the net contributors. The figures for how much Britain pays in is apparently of the order of some £23 billion, of which approximately £7 billion comes back in the form of grants and subsidies. The exact figures are secret, but Germany is the biggest contributor of all.

What is the rationale for belonging to such a system? Why don't the Germans drop out, for example? There must be some reason to be there or they wouldn't be.

Because the political elites in the European Union benefit from the arrangement enormously. The whole apparatus of the EU and its quangos is one giant job creation scheme (complete with gold plated pensions) for politicians and bureaucrats, paid for by the taxpayer. Even in Britain, with all the emphasis on cuts to government spending, the British contribution to the EU isn't being cut, it is airbrushed out of the debate because the political elites do not want it discussed.

RF wrote:Because the political elites in the European Union benefit from the arrangement enormously. The whole apparatus of the EU and its quangos is one giant job creation scheme (complete with gold plated pensions) for politicians and bureaucrats, paid for by the taxpayer. Even in Britain, with all the emphasis on cuts to government spending, the British contribution to the EU isn't being cut, it is airbrushed out of the debate because the political elites do not want it discussed.

That is what you think it is for. What is given as the rationale for it's existence?

Basically the idea that by uniting the countries of Europe, principally France and Germany, there would never again be a ''European civil war.'' These ideas were first expressed by the likes of Monnet and Schuman after WW1. After WW2 the US supported these ideas for the purpose of creating a strong western Europe, including a rearmed Germany, to face the USSR in the Cold War. The non-German countries of western Europe also saw it as a means of containing Germany from any rebirth of the aggressive militarism which started both world wars.

After the Marshall Plan had helped reconstruct western Europe from the devastation of WW2, six countries, Germany, Netherlands, Belguim, Luxembourg, France and Italy formed the European Economic Community from 1957. This started off as a free intra-trade area, with West Germany and France evolving into a political leadership.
From here the political elites become the driving force, as ''European institutions'' become set up and the express political role superceded the original economic objectives. All of this was achieved by a virtual monopoly of political consensus in favour of what is now the EU. The fundamental questions were never put to electorates in the continental countries as a whole because as all of the political parties(except those on the extreme fringes) supported the EU and its objectives. Until UKIP (that is the UK Independence Party) came along in the UK there was no ''moderate'' political party to vote for that opposed the EU.

Isn't there a movement in Germany to rid themselves of it? I think part of the current rationale is to try to keep Germany in the EU because they might otherwise make common cause with Russia to the detriment of the West. They are dependent on Russia for their Natural Gas, aren't they?

Bgile wrote:Isn't there a movement in Germany to rid themselves of it?

Nigel Farage, the leader of the UKIP members of the European Parliament, recently attended and addressed a conference in Berlin where a German version of UKIP is hoped to be set up. There is also currently an appeal to be heard by the German Constituitional Court about aspects of the Lisbon Treaty being in contravention of the Federal Constitution. Until now the various movements in Germany aiming to rid their country from the EU have all been on the far right, with the obvious association with neo-nazism.

I think that if a referendum were to be held in Germany today on the issue of the single currency a majority of Germans would opt for a restoration of the deutschmark, which probably would be as good for the euro as it would be for Germany's currency. German Chancellor Maerkel is hardly likely to hold such a referendum.

Bgile wrote:..... Germany in the EU because they might otherwise make common cause with Russia to the detriment of the West. They are dependent on Russia for their Natural Gas, aren't they?

Most of central Europe imports gas and oil sourced from Russia, including Ukraine and Moldovo. Russia has threatened to cut off the supply if price increases weren't accepted, and for a short time supplies to the former Soviet republics were interrupted. But stopping supplies to Germany, Poland, France would pose enormous risks to the current Russian regime, I don't think they would be mad enough to try it, not just because of the retaliatory trade losses but because it would threaten to destabilise Russia politically.