JSF Delayed Again: Pushed Back 13 Months

[Kyler]

Well more great news out what now appears to be the biggest mismanagement mess of all time in military procurement history. It is reported that officials in European countries partnered in the JSF program were told the development program is being pushed back another 13 months. This after Sec of Defense Gates fired the Marine Lt. Gen in charge early this month, in addition in holding back nearly half a billion dollars in funds from Lockheed for the delay. It is now looking that the F-35C may not start entering service until 2014, that doesn't even taken in to account the Navy's "C" version still hasn't flown. The Marine Corps, RAF, and RN's "B" model still has not even completed its very important hover trials. It is looking likely unless something is done soon the USN will have a serious fighter gap in a few years, and the RN may not have any fast jets to use on their brand new Queen Elizabeth’s.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =AME&s=AIR

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/de ... d=blogDest

[chcrawfish]

Just great. Here I am, just retired from the US Navy, trying to get a job with Lockheed on the F-35 program......

[Karl Heidenreich]

The JSF superseeded the F-22 Raptor programm, isn´t it? I heard the latter was aborted in order to favour the smaller and less expensive F-35, is that correct?

[Kyler]

You are correct Karl

Some people were upset since the F-22 is a more steathly aircraft, has better range, better air to air ability, better radar, better communications, pretty much better everything except cost ($80 to $220). I would have cut the F-35 back and bought more F-22's if I were the president.

[Bgile]

You are correct Karl

Some people were upset since the F-22 is a more steathly aircraft, has better range, better air to air ability, better radar, better communications, pretty much better everything except cost ($80 to $220). I would have cut the F-35 back and bought more F-22's if I were the president.

My understanding is that the F-22 requires very heavy maintenance between flights due to the nature of it's anti radar coating. Rain can damage it. Also, it's air to surface attack capability is very poor.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Kyler:

Some people were upset since the F-22 is a more steathly aircraft, has better range, better air to air ability, better radar, better communications, pretty much better everything except cost ($80 to $220). I would have cut the F-35 back and bought more F-22's if I were the president.

I agree with your assesment. Of course the US is must prioritize, I imagine. For the time being I think the F-35 could outfight everything from th e Eurofighter, all the frenchies, and the russians planes. And the US is hard pressed with anti terrorist wars. So, it seems logical that they cut of an expensive unnecesary program (for the time being) to allocate more resources in critical areas.

My two cents. If I would be a military leader I would sleep better with a huge bunch of F-22 instead of F-35

[chcrawfish]

Let's not forget that Sukhoi has just test flown their own 5th generation stealth fighter, and it was designed to be equal or better than the F-22. Chalk up another move by The Chosen One to diminish our capabilities.

[Karl Heidenreich]

chcrawfish:

Chalk up another move by The Chosen One to diminish our capabilities.

Hear hear!!!!

[Kyler]

chcrawfish:

Chalk up another move by The Chosen One to diminish our capabilities.

Hear hear!!!!

It wasn't Obama who wanted to kill the F-22, it was Gates. He's been trying to kill the program even since he got into
office during the Bush years.

The F-35 will not be superior to the Eurofighter, its radar will and stealth capabilities will be better, but armament, range, supercruise, and other capabilities will not match the Eurofighter. Su-27's, Eurofighters, Rafales, F-15's, MiG-29's, and F-22 will be better dog fighters

[Karl Heidenreich]

Kyler;

It wasn't Obama who wanted to kill the F-22, it was Gates. He's been trying to kill the program even since he got into
office during the Bush years.

The F-35 will not be superior to the Eurofighter, its radar will and stealth capabilities will be better, but armament, range, supercruise, and other capabilities
will not match the Eurofighter. Su-27's, Eurofighters, Rafales, F-15's, MiG-29's, and F-22 will be better dog fighters

I have never understand why, from time to time, Secretaries of Defense do everything in their power to render the US uncapable of defend itself. Amongst others I recall Robert McNamara.

However, if the Secretary have a certain policy it is the President the one that endorses or denies it. It´s like saying that it was Collin Powell alone the sole responsible for not finishing properly the Gulf War in 1991, he needed a half ass presidential strategist to get his way. Same here.

The Chosen One, as has been refered, remind me very much of the Anti American Soviet Agent Jimmy Carter when he did whatever in his hands to bury the MX missile, the Abrams M-1 tank and the B-1 bomber whilst the soviets were building the greatest "peace times" army in recorded History.

Kyler:

I wasn´t aware that the JSF was as weak as you describe it. I have always been of the notion that USAF actual technological and performance standards are such that their air superiority units ALWAYS outflight, outmanouver and outfight foreign interceptors such as Mig or Eurofighter (and obviously the frenchy ones). If that so then the sin being commited is greater than I first believed. Sinful to the extreme. I do imagine that a bunch of bums at the Harlem must be happy to get that undeserved money in order not to work and keep tunning up a pink Cadillac.

Best regards,

[Bgile]

The Chosen One? Why am I not supposed to look at this as racial bigotry?

[lwd]

... The F-35 will not be superior to the Eurofighter, its radar will and stealth capabilities will be better, but armament, range, supercruise, and other capabilities will not match the Eurofighter. Su-27's, Eurofighters, Rafales, F-15's, MiG-29's, and F-22 will be better dog fighters

Well armament's an open question as exaclty what the two will carry is a matter of conjecture.
Range - given the US's refueling capablity it's effective range may be greater certainly good enough.
As for supercurse isn't that and stealth rather mutually exclusive or at least competeing?
Looking at dogfighting while it's probably not "obsolete" given todays sensors, weapons, and communications it's certainly far less important than it was in the past. If a fighter under AWACS control can get a get targeting solution and pickle off a high P(H) missile before his opponets even aware he's in the neighborhood dogfighting capabilities don't mean much. Indeed embedded and associated training aids & simulations may be more important than the factors you mention.

[Kyler]

Well armament's an open question as exaclty what the two will carry is a matter of conjecture.
Range - given the US's refueling capablity it's effective range may be greater certainly good enough.
As for supercurse isn't that and stealth rather mutually exclusive or at least competeing?
Looking at dogfighting while it's probably not "obsolete" given todays sensors, weapons, and communications it's certainly far less important than it was in the past. If a fighter under AWACS control can get a get targeting solution and pickle off a high P(H) missile before his opponets even aware he's in the neighborhood dogfighting capabilities don't mean much. Indeed embedded and associated training aids & simulations may be more important than the factors you mention.

lwd,

You sound like a lot of the worlds Generals during the 50's & 60's. They thought that SAM's and advance AAM's would end close-in Air to Air combat. Vietnam proved that theory wrong. Yes, missiles and radars have come a long way since then but missiles and radar still malfunction all the time. Yugoslavia's MiG-29 shoot downs during 1999, NATO expended some 8 AMRAAM's for each Fulcrum shot down. Not really a great ratio. Most people don't even know that since Vietnam most missiles kills have been with IR guided AAMs. Another factor is the JSF problem against even 4th gen fighters is the West's poor AAM systems. The AMRAAM C5 is the most advance, the Meteor is nearing initial trial service but Russia has as advance and much more maneuverable AAM systems. The AIM-9X is a prime example, it is a currently a 4th gen missile. Most other countries are now fielding 5th gen IR missiles. Russia has long been using helmet mounted sites, something only in the last 5 years the US and its allies have seriously adopted. Supercruise and Stealth have no relation to one another. But being able to get to Mach 1+ without afterburner helps jets move fast in combat while conserving fuel. Only the F-22 and now the Eurofighter have that capability, though soon enough the Su-35S & PAK-FA T-50 as well. The F-35 was designed to be a semi-stealthy first strike light fighter bomber. It was not designed to do the heavy lifting of air to air combat, that’s what the F-22 is for. The F-35 will be a decent dogfighter but it wouldn't hold a prayer to the big boys in air to air combat. It will have a pretty good AESA radar, but in its stealthy configuration it will lack a the necessary AAM load to be a major player especially if things get close, that only being 4 missiles (2 AMRAAM's & 2 AIM-9X's). Also people the F-35 will not nearly a sophisticated communications suite as the F-22.

The problems is the Pentagon told people the F-35 was going to be a like a mini F-22 in all aspects, but in reality is far short of the bar set by the Raptor.

Karl

One reason why Gates was so set at getting the F-22 dead and gone is because he thought the F-35 was on track. That’s why he fired that General & held funds from Lockheed. For years Gates has been told the JSF program was doing fine, just having normal development problems, in reality there have been serious problems and people in the Pentagon and in Lockheed Martin have been hiding them. Gates in my opinion should have resigned our this whole debacle. He should have known better to take the word of Pentagon brass and manufactures. In reality the US doesn't have as good of weapons compared to some countries. In close-in air to air combat, the dominate players now are the F-22, Su-30/35, Rafale, and Eurofighter. The F-35 will never be at the level, it wasn't designed to be. Where the US exceeds other countries is its quality of pilots. US trains and fields the best overall force of fighter pilots in the world with exception of Israel. The quality of the pilot has a lot do with how effective it is. While Russia & China have great pilots their standards and flight time don't match the US and other Western nations. When Allied or friendly nations that field other technology have gone up against US in friendly fights, the US has gotten the crap beaten out of it. Prime examples of Cope India with Su-30MKI's vs F-15C's and RAF Eurofighters v F-15C's. Though the F-22 has not been brought to these meetings yet, though in Air to Air Trials against F-15's with AESA the Raptor beat the crap of the F-15's.

[Bgile]

Prime examples of Cope India with Su-30MKI's vs F-15C's and RAF Eurofighters v F-15C's.

I believe that is the ONLY example, n'est pas?

In a more recent exercise USMC pilots in F/A-18s easily defeated Maylasian pilots in Mig-29s, even though the marines were primarily air to ground guys. That's a lot more typical, which is why the Indian example was so surprising and is being studied very carefully.

[lwd]

...You sound like a lot of the worlds Generals during the 50's & 60's. They thought that SAM's and advance AAM's would end close-in Air to Air combat. Vietnam proved that theory wrong. Yes, missiles and radars have come a long way since then but missiles and radar still malfunction all the time. Yugoslavia's MiG-29 shoot downs during 1999, NATO expended some 8 AMRAAM's for each Fulcrum shot down. Not really a great ratio.

Times have changed since then. One of the biggest changes is AWACS. you may complaing about AMRAAM's spent to shoot down Fulcrums gut I don't see them winningany batles either. How many Wetern fighters have been lost in the last couple of decades? While not a whole lot have been shot down on the other side the kill ratio is hugely in favor of Western fighters and in most cases the fight was laready decided before the first shots were fired.

...Another factor is the JSF problem against even 4th gen fighters is the West's poor AAM systems.

Compared to what?

The AMRAAM C5 is the most advance, the Meteor is nearing initial trial service but Russia has as advance and much more maneuverable AAM systems.

The question is how much is marketing hype and how much is classified. But of course it's maneuverability and advanced missiles don't help that much if the other side has birds on the way and you still havent' located him.

... it is a currently a 4th gen missile. Most other countries are now fielding 5th gen IR missiles.

As a matter of curiousity what do you consider the defining characteristics of 4th vs 5th generation missiles?

Russia has long been using helmet mounted sites, something only in the last 5 years the US and its allies have seriously adopted.

And what does this have to do with a future fighter? If the west was still thinking about it you might have a point but now and in the future ....

Supercruise and Stealth have no relation to one another.

They don't? I thought stealth was all about shape and certainly shape is important to supercruise as well. I'd be very surprised if the optimum shape for one was the optimum for the other. The same would hold for engines.

.... The F-35 will be a decent dogfighter but it wouldn't hold a prayer to the big boys in air to air combat.

That's onlly if you assume that dogfighiting = air to air combat. Recent evidence is that this is becoming less and less a factor.

... Also people the F-35 will not nearly a sophisticated communications suite as the F-22.

Where did you get this from?

The problems is the Pentagon told people the F-35 was going to be a like a mini F-22 in all aspects, but in reality is far short of the bar set by the Raptor.
....

I'd have to see the numbers. Do you have a source for the "mini F-22 in all aspects" as well?