Bismarck Wreck Salvage

[Matthias]

I think Germans (and we italians with them...) should get rid of the troubles of their past history.And look further.
It's a sin to forget those who bravely died on the battlefields and on the sea and on the skies for their homelands, whatever the political spring that moved them was evil and mindtwisted or not. Deads are all equal, for me.
My grandparents and kins fought and died, as volunteers, to defend what they thought it was right. Who can judge if they were wrong or not? They did what they believed was right: probably many of us would, surely me, have done the same.

Indeed Germany and Italy should remember in a more decent way the men she lost during the IIWW, not only naming a frigade with the name of their commanders, but giving them an appropriate memorial place.
That should be done with Bismarck's crew too.
Anyway I guess it's slightly unappropriate to recover a wreck piece to do that. Don't mind what they did with Tirpitz... the Sea will keep the body of the most beautiful ship ever builded better then any of us.

[Pax Melmacia]

I cannot access certain items on eBay because of legal considerations

I've seen this legality taken to what is IMHO ludicrous heights. In a model of the B-17 bomber 'Memphis Belle', the plane's turrets are supposed to have 'kill' marks of little swastikas for each Luftwaffe aircraft shot down. yet because the model was sold in Germany as well, the company substituted the swastikas with tiny Baltic Crosses.

[Matthias]

Indeed.You cannot avoid a dictature, or anyway past history, by simply erasing its simbols...as I said, Germany (and Italy too...) should come over this things.

[JustMe]

From my personal and very german point of view :

All wrecks found in international water belongs to the country which flag they sailed under. If the wreck is located in the three-mile zone of any country they belong to that country. So the Tirpitz is/was/will be property of Norway, because her remains are in a Norway fjord.
It is the decision of the German Gouvernment what to do with the wreck of the Bismarck.

Concerning the human remains :
After the experience with the remains of some U-Boat Sailors. (Skull removed from Wreck and displayed in SCUBA-Shop (East Coast USA)). Germany and the US agreed to honour any wreckage sites as war grave.
You may imagine the remains of US or British Flight crews shot down in WWII suddenly displayed in a German or Japanese SCUBA-Shop ????
The sailors aboard Bismark fought and died in the tradition of every Navy, sadly for the wrong cause. So, lets honour their sacrifice by leaving them together at their final resting pleace.

Nevertheless, salvaging any part of the Bismarck will be extremely expansive. Due to the fact that the construction plans are still available, it will be cheaper to order a new gun.

Last but no least : The swastika is forbidden in Germany because it is still misused as a propaganda item. It is not the symbol itself, but what it stands for thats is loathed. I personally will gladly accept any bans on those symbols in order to NEVER EVER see those freaks marching our streets again.

replies and answers welcome

[Matthias]

Concerning the human remains :
After the experience with the remains of some U-Boat Sailors. (Skull removed from Wreck and displayed in SCUBA-Shop (East Coast USA)). Germany and the US agreed to honour any wreckage sites as war grave.
You may imagine the remains of US or British Flight crews shot down in WWII suddenly displayed in a German or Japanese SCUBA-Shop ????

They really did it?

[JustMe]

http://www.u-boot-greywolf.de/uartikel_ ... 2-1998.htm

[Matthias]

My God...


This is almost morbid...

[miro777]

hey
maybe i am a little bit late, but i still want to express my opinion.
i did not read all of the posts before so i will just say what i think bout the wreck.

that journey from cameron aws interesting and worthy once.
teh survivors had a chance to see their ship again and give their comerads a last message and the navy 'nerds' were sastified as well.

if i would be one of the survivor or at least i feel a little bit related to them for i am german, i would not want the wreck to be put to the surface.

the argument of that future generations would like to see it is good...
but well it's not so important

i would more say that this ship was built for the water and it sank
and at that place, where that great ship died and sank, with almost 2000 soules on it,
at this place it should lie forever.
the bones of the sailors and souls are still in the sea and so should the ship be.
if it destroys itself over time...
thats even better.
Bismarck dissolves itself in her element.

that's how it should be....and thats how its hopefully gonna be....

miro

[Danelov]

I agree 100 % with Peter
Leave the wreck alone , and also limit the expeditions to the site to preserve his peace and respect to all this souls.We know today the condition of the wreck ,thousand of photos were done ,we need something more? We need to touch, to have something material in hand? Is that really necessary?
The bottom of the sea is a very digne place for this ship , much better as a scrapping yard, museum or other money make machine.A objet there , in the sand or inside of the ship is in his right historic and sentimental context and must rest so; certainly not in a vitrine.

Remember Titanic, at first time evrybody had say " Yes, is a grave,must be respected and we touch nothing"

And then?

TV shows with debris and objets. Museum and expositions , 25 Us dollars for a piece of coal of the "Tiitanic" bunkers , the wreck plundered extensivily and the irreparable damage done , intent to refloat a session of the hull ,etc,etc.

Leave the wreck alone...

[hannah rickard]

I am the secretary for the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse Survivors Association, having taken over the role when my father, Kenneth Byrne passed away.

As some of you may be aware divers regularly dive the wrecks. Many have entered the ships and taken videos and photos of the inside. Some of the photos are on the Internet and show human remains. We believe that any war grave should be protected whether on land or sea, in British or International waters.

Please find below a message I have posted on our Website in response to other postings. http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk

As a footnote can I assure you that even after all this time human remains are still on these wrecks, we know because these divers continue to put pictures and videos of them on websites.

I am the current secretary for the Association, having taken over the role when my father, Kenneth Byrne passed away. My father served on HMS Prince of Wales and was 17 years and one month old when the Prince of Wales was sunk; his friend was the same age but did not survive the sinking and still lies with his ship. This is something my father never forgot.

Some people have suggested that most survivors do not own a computer or have access to the Internet. They are wrong. My father had his first computer at the age of 75, Internet ready. Most survivors have children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren who own computers and are able to simply type in HMS Repulse to a search engine. It is surprising what turns up. Some of the items on websites are very distressing as they contain images of human remains.

I had the pleasure of meeting the late Shirley Ward. Her father Frank served on HMS Repulse, she was a baby when her father died. His final resting place is HMS Repulse. Shirley was one of the first persons to inform the association of the activity of divers on the wrecks. When I see a photo, clip of a film on the Internet, for all I know I could be looking at the remains of Shirley’s father, for that matter a father or grandfather of another member of the Association. When you have met these people personally you see a different picture.

What should the association do, keep quiet or to work to try and protect the final resting places of hero’s who died fighting for their country, some of whom were only boys?

I have a duty to report to members anything that is brought to my attention. The matter was again on the agenda for the AGM this year. Again the members voted for the Association to continue to campaign for changes in the law to stop divers entering the ships. This is what we shall do.

Please don’t get me wrong, we do not want to stop divers visiting the ships, But please do not enter. Please do not disturb the final resting place of these men.

We don’t just want this for HMS Repulse or HMS Prince of Wales, we would like this for all maritime war graves, what ever their nationality. If the law is not changed and international agreements set in place, one-day divers will be in HMS Hood and the Bismarck. The Association wants protection for every war grave whether on land or at sea.

Yours faithfully
Hannah Rickard, Association Secretary. (Daughter of Ken L Byrne, former crew member of HMS Prince of Wales).

[Karl Heidenreich]

To Hannah Rickard:

I agree completely with you and with the Force Z Association. Another member of this forum bring this issue to my attention and I read the posts about it in the HMS Hood Association Forum.
The fact that someone is making a tourist-fun-income by taking morbid photos and videos is low, very low.
Sunken warships are sacred wargraves of those who give their lives for the rights we have today, but not the "right" to desecrate their graves.

Some months ago there was another topic about this same problem with the Jutland wrecks. It seems that the XXI Century doesn´t bring any moral bonanza to this planet.

Sincerelly,

Karl Heidenreich
San José, Costa Rica

[marcelo_malara]

As a diver I believe the wrecks may be visited, but must be left untouched in every sense. It is a way to be remembered in the same way that people visit the Allied cemetery in Normandy or any other.

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

Here is an USN legal opinion on wartime wrecks. Warships that have not surrendered to a foreign sovereign nation's flag, belong to the nation of origin. So unless somebody can prove the preposterous notion that the BISMARCK was boarded by the RN in her last moments afloat........ flying her war ensign and never striking it down, it appears that Germany owns the ship by international customs. The suggestion that "we sank it, we own it!" is incorrect by internatioal laws of the seas. Unfortunately, like most laws, jurisdictional enforcement over a wreck is difficult, and most governments would not fire a single live rounds to protect their old wrecks and war graves on the high seas, unless there were gold or silver in it.
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-7j.htm

[E. Lindemann]

Hello to all

As I am a great fan of the battleship Bismarck since my early youth, not for the system it fought for, but for the aesthetics and the great engineering of that ship, I would like to give my point of view to this discussion.
I agree whith everyone here saying leave the wreck at it's deeply naval grave down the atlantic. I don't arrogate this only for the wreck of Bismarck, but for ervery ships sunk at all. Lets keep the sailsmen graves in honour an keep theirs souls an ships in mind for all time.
I think there will be no use of showing off their ship wrecks to anyone. Also I think, even if I am from Germany, the wreck of the sunken ships, especially of that where such many people lost their lives as on Bismarck, belong to their crews, to noone else!
Ok thats my opinion for the ethic side of the dikussion.
Lets have a look at the technical analysis of a contract like a salvage of the wreck of the Bismarck.
What do we talk about? A wreck that is at least 35000t heavy and is filled whith aproxemetly the same weight of water as well. But thats not all, unfortunately the wreck lies about 5-8m down in the seas ground. But that all would have be nice if the wreck wouldn't be on a depth of about 5000m.
So, even if it would be possible to manage these problems an get the wreck out of the atlantic, nobody of you can belief that it is possible to rebuild the ship from this wreck. It's an illusion!
Why?
Even if the Bismarck would have been sunk at it's own, whithout any damage from enemy vessels, what do you think was the speed it hits the ground of the atlantic? My estimated calculation for that is, if the conclusion of J.Cameron is right that the descent of the Bismarck would have taken 10 minutes, the average speed of touch down was aboat >30km/h. That would have been the same force if you had taken the ship out of the whater for about 3 meters and let it fall down on the ground. Do you really think the structure of any ship would be usefull after that? I think everythings left from the Bismarck for now is crap, not more and not less.
If there would really be an interest in seeing and exploring a ship like the Bismarck today, it's much easier to go to the US an have a look at the ex Iowa class ships. And if thats not enough build an initiative to rebuild an Bismarck class ship from it's cnstruction sheets from the Bohm&Voss arcives. That would not be so expensive!

Thats what I have to say to this discussion...
Please excuse my English, it's not the best at all but I was forced to write these few lines.

Greets from Germany

[MichaelC]

it's much easier to go to the US an have a look at the ex Iowa class ships. And if thats not enough build an initiative to rebuild an Bismarck class ship from it's cnstruction sheets from the Bohm&Voss arcives. That would not be so expensive!

It's only a matter of time before someone builds a battleship themed hotel/casino in Vegas.