Bismarck Wreck Salvage

Ed S. · Post by **Ed S.** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:43 am

I know I have posted this before, but I don't understand why this idea of raseing it is being entertained. This espceially goes to bgile. How can you say the Arizona is not the same thing, let me give you a peice of advice, don't use that with a veteran of Pearl Harbor, especially someone involved with the Arizona. How is not the same thing? Ones deeper than the other, that's about it. Even if it were raised to be a floating museum, how many people would want to go see a ship from Nazi Germany, where will you put it, in Germany, where the Swastika is forbidden, and remind me again what is painted on the bow and stern. I think Peter Graham gets the idea, Amen to your comments, along with all the others opposed to this rediculous idea.

Bgile · Post by **Bgile** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:57 pm

I don't understand why you took this critical tone with me. I mayself am a veteran, and although I am no spring chicken myself, I have older and younger veterans in my family.

The Arizona is sitting in the middle of Pearl Harbor and has no particular historical interest other than as a memorial. The Bismarck is a fascinating ship that thousands of military historians are extremely interested in.

Two of the Arizona's turrets were salvaged and positions were designed for them to defend Oahu.

I can understand people's feelings, and I respect that. Personally I don't care what becomes of my remains when I die, but you have no right to accuse me of being some unfeeling monster.

I agree with a previous poster that salvaging turrets from Bismarck is probably more practical and less fraught with emotion.

Steve Crandell

Ed S. · Post by **Ed S.** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:44 am

It's not that I am trying to offend anyone, but even something as trivial as to bringing up one of the turrets, there is really no justification for it. There is a beautiful memorial in Friedrichsruh, Germany, whci I have been too many times. I have corresponded and interacted with a few Bismarck survivors, and to hear them speak of their ship as it's final resting place, and how their shipmates should rest in peace down there, I think they truly understand what the wreck is, and what it symbolizes. Even though two of Arizona's turrets were salvaged, and like you said were designed to defend Oahu. When they were doing the salvage operations at Pear after the attack, the Arizona was deemed to damaged to be slavaged, hence that is why it was left there. It was on;y in the fifties and sixties was it determined to be a memorial because of the huge loss of life. BUt slavageing anything form the Bismarck is not important, because what good would haveing a turret be. It wouldn't help us understand why the ship sank. I know they removed some of the guns from the Graf Spee, but that was scuttled with no loss of life. I know I am passionate about this subject, and if I do offend anyone, then I do apologize, that is not my intention at all.

Bgile · Post by **Bgile** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:47 pm

Thank you, and I can understand how the survivors must feel. It is possible for me to imagine what they went through, but none of us will really understand without having been there.

Steve Crandell

Torpedo Bob · Post by **Torpedo Bob** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:26 pm

This is a very interesting discussion and one that has prompted me to join the forum rather than just browse.

Some very good points being made, I am also of the opinion that war graves at sea should be left well alone. Photographic research missions are ok, after all there is nothing disrespectful about visiting a war cemetary to pay your respects and learn more about those men who died, I have visited many of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetaries in Northern France & Belgium and was deeply moved. Photographs from expeditions such as that carried out by R Ballard in 89 can be used in permanent land-based museums and memorials that allow people to visit without spending upwards of $20000 to visit the wreck in a sub.

One thing that is worthy of discussion was hinted at by Ed S. When does a ship sunk with massive loss of life become an officially recognised war grave?
Those sailors that perished on Tirpitz didn't confer war-grave status on the ship after the war while private companies scrapped the majority of the ship, probably because it wasn't totally submerged...but would they still have salvaged it had it been submerged but very shallow and easily worked on? Who knows. I must assume they removed bodies as they worked on the scrapping and accorded them appropriate military funerals...

me262 · Post by **me262** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:12 am

unfortunetly no, they considered a war grave if a countrymany is there, norway,if not is a regular wreck and posibly the human remains where dumped among other refuse they got from the wreck, sadly but is the true

Pax Melmacia · Post by **Pax Melmacia** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:33 am

The raising of a vessel sunk in action is certainly a sensitive issue. Just recently I watched a moving account of the raising of the Confederate States of America's submersible Hunley which sank with all hands. At the very least, the salvage had answered a few questions about the sinking.

I realize that the Bismarck and a small sub are no comparison, but if the human factor were taken into account, there can be some similarities. I think we can compromise with the raising of one of the main turrets. (At the very least, this time, we can have an answer to the turret color question.)

me262 · Post by **me262** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:39 am

Pax Melmacia wrote: I think we can compromise with the raising of one of the main turrets. (At the very least, this time, we can have an answer to the turret color question.)

a multimillion operation ( who is going to pay for it?)
just to find what color is the turret?
i do not think so!!!!

Pax Melmacia · Post by **Pax Melmacia** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:40 am

Me-262:

Ha! Good point!

Actually, I was after the historical significance. The color issue is secondary. I recall the Prinz Eugen's former crew electing to bring up a propeller.

Still, the question of where to go for money is a big problem . . .

Ulrich Rudofsky · Post by **Ulrich Rudofsky** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:07 pm

Well, the "Prinz Eugen" propeller was sticking up in the air and the recovery was made from an USN ship wreck not from a war grave. There could be dead sailors in the turret and I would assume it too is considered part of the burial site.

Aside from that, the recovery cost may be outweighed by the restoration cost, because all parts may have to undergo electrolytic reduction for preservation. (see "USS Monitor" site).

http://www.liddiard.pwp.blueyonder.co.u ... pegal2.htm

me262 · Post by **me262** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:41 pm

Ulrich Rudofsky wrote:Well, the "Prinz Eugen" propeller was sticking up in the air and the recovery was made from an USN ship wreck not from a war grave. There could be dead sailors in the turret and I would assume it too is considered part of the burial site.

Aside from that, the recovery cost may be outweighed by the restoration cost, because all parts may have to undergo electrolytic reduction for preservation. (see "USS Monitor" site).

http://www.liddiard.pwp.blueyonder.co.u ... pegal2.htm

the main problem is not technology, can use the clementine device.
but $$$$$, as i posted before, who is going to foot the bill? and political, the wreck is property of the german goberment and considering that the bismarck represents the nazi germany i do not belive they will allow any attempt to do anything on the bismarck.
about the monitor, just remember that it was found in shallow waters, meaning a lot of oxidation, also the difference will be the quality of the alloys, the bismarck does not look rusted, the problem are the rusticles, been a colony of microorganism, that is eating away all the metal

Ulrich Rudofsky · Post by **Ulrich Rudofsky** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:58 am

"property of the german goberment and considering that the bismarck represents the nazi germany i do not belive they will allow any attempt to do anything on the bismarck. "

I often actually wonder, if anyone "owns" the Bismarck at this point in time. The "owner" really does not exist anymore and the winner takes all, anyway. Does the present German government have, or claims to have, any property rights to this shipwreck? I think all there is, is the world's consensus that it should be considered a German war grave. Perhaps the United Kingdom owns the Bismarck as a war prize. Nobody seems to make a fuss about the Tirpitz having been cut up or any of the hundreds of other warships on the bottom. I certainly agree that if the turret were raised, it could not be exhibted in Germany right now, but more likely in the US, Japan, China or even the UK.

As to the rust. It is not the oxidative rust so much, but the chemical reactions of the chlorides etc. with the iron that is a nasty problem with the Monitor or any other ship resting in saltwater, e.g., the Graf Spee parts. Washing or painting does not stop this decaying action and it is accelrated once there is exposure to the air, as far as I understand it.

pdfox99 · Post by **pdfox99** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:45 pm

Ulrich,

Why do you think that if one of the turrets were raised, that it could not be presented in Germany? What was done with the one propeller of the Prinze Eugen? Wouldn't it be proper to recognize it as a symbol of the Kriegsmarine and not to associate it with Nazism? "I'm thinking of those incredibly brave sailors toughing it out those last two hours." Even Winston Churchill made a comment (if my mind serves me right) about those brave men. Wouldn't, or shouldn't that be the theme? I know (but have never visited) about a great Memorial in Germany of the U-Boat men who were lost. http://www.uboat.net/index.html

Paul

Ulrich Rudofsky · Post by **Ulrich Rudofsky** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:10 am

I fully agree with your view. The screw of the Prinz Eugen was placed at the Laboe Memorial in 1978-79, I think. It is a very appropriate memorial. At that time there was no great deal of paranoia about Nazi artefacts in Germany such as there is now, e.g., on eBay, or the commerce of books, medals, belt buckles, or even ship models. For example, I collect 1:1250 scale ship models: a particular model of the Bismarck comes without a swastika for the Germans and with it for the rest of us. My German friends say that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to bring a turret from the Bismarck back home into Germany considering the political climate right now. I personally think that it would be a well-deserved memorial. The dinky anchor at Friedrichsruh seems inadquate to me. I get upset when I set my Internet browser to German and I get a message that I cannot access certain items on eBay because of legal considerations, but I can do it if I set my browser on English or Arabic or Swahili or Korean. My German friends set theirs to English, too, but then someone from outside Germany would have to become a go-between. I really get bent out of shape about this.........

KDoenitz · Post by **KDoenitz** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:48 pm

Since the age of 14 (now 40) I have marvelled at the beauty of this ship. Yes, I know she was a warship of an evil and twisted political party, but that is not the point. She was as near to possible as it was to build an unsinkable ship.

I TOTALLY agree that she is a wargrave and fully respect that she is treated as such, but since I became interested in her, it has been an ambition of mine to see her where she belongs, preserved and loved for what she is, a magnificent and aesthetically pleasing, functional piece of superb engineering. I for one feel she should be salvaged and restored so that future generations can marvel at these leviathans which once prowled the oceans. A testament to mans creativity, and also his destructiveness!

I never thought I would live to see the Berlin wall come down, but I did, and Germany re-united too! Now let's see another great German event, the raising and restoration of the KM Bismarck!

Germany has a long history, some of which it would rather forget, building such masterpieces is not one of them.

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