Lutzow vs. US heavy cruiser

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Lutzow vs. US heavy cruiser

Post by RF » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:39 pm

How would the panzerschiff fire power compare with the WW2 US heavy cruisers? In a one on one meeting would the 8 inch armament of US ships be expected to do better than say a British County Class cruiser?
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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:47 pm

I believe it will be more or less the scenario for River Plate: the 11" guns of the panzerschiffe vs. the lighter 8". There´s just too much difference.
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Post by Lutscha » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:53 pm

The Americans can easily penetrate Lützow´s armour, so it´s just about who scores the first decisive hits. The 11inch shells are far more destructive but she will get more hits in return.
With radar FC I´d put my money on the American cruiser otherwise its pretty even. The range advantage of the German guns won´t help much, since it´s very unlikely, that hits will occur past 30k Yards.

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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:06 pm

Lutscha:
The Americans can easily penetrate Lützow´s armour, so it´s just about who scores the first decisive hits. The 11inch shells are far more destructive but she will get more hits in return.
With radar FC I´d put my money on the American cruiser otherwise its pretty even. The range advantage of the German guns won´t help much, since it´s very unlikely, that hits will occur past 30k Yards.
That´s not what happened at River Plate. The German "pockett BB" did hit heavily the British ships, not being the contenders at extreme range.

As a matter of fact only a small proportion of engagements had happened at someone´s extreme range. The radar FC would not be of any help if the Germans could achieve early hits, which is something they usually did as in RP or DS. (As I recall it´s in North Cape where the Germans didn´t scored a single hit against the DoY).
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Post by Lutscha » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:34 pm

Radar (Mk 8 onwards) ensures that the Americans are more likely to hit first. I don´t know about German first salvo hits/straddles but the Americans had both.

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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:58 pm

Lutscha:
Radar (Mk 8 onwards) ensures that the Americans are more likely to hit first. I don´t know about German first salvo hits/straddles but the Americans had both.
At what range? How can we be so sure that the cruisers will hit first?
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Post by Lutscha » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:02 pm

I`m not sure they will, I just think it´s more likely for them to hit first.

West Virginia hit Yamashiro at about 22k Yards on her first salvo at Surigao.

Iowa straddled Nowaki at 35k yards on her first salvo.

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Post by Bgile » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:19 pm

US CAs had 335 lb AP shells capable of penetrating AGSs armor, so they would be very dangerous to her. On the other hand, if you are talking about contemporary US cruisers prior to the Baltimore class, their fire control probably wasn’t much better than Exeters although 9 guns vs 6 would certainly help.

I would still give AGS the advantage because of her heavier guns.

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Post by Tiornu » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:48 pm

The only American CAs with 335-lb shells were the Baltimores. Nevertheless, the American shells will be somewhat more penetrative than the ones that historically hit Graf Spee

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Post by RF » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:11 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:

That´s not what happened at River Plate. The German "pockett BB" did hit heavily the British ships, not being the contenders at extreme range.
Don't forget that at the River Plate battle Exeter only scored two 8 inch shell hits. These two hits did a substantial part of the internal damage to Spee. According to Rasenack one of these two hits narrowly avoided penetrating the armour plating right into Spee's engine rooms, a hit he says ''would have been disastrous.''
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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:07 pm

RF, you´re right but Exeter was more damaged than GS at RP. The only reason Exeter didn´t sunk was (again the Lutjens Syndrome) Langsdorf´s order to disengage and go to Montevideo.
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Post by Bgile » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:31 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:RF, you´re right but Exeter was more damaged than GS at RP. The only reason Exeter didn´t sunk was (again the Lutjens Syndrome) Langsdorf´s order to disengage and go to Montevideo.
I don't think this is true. Didn't Langsdorf shift fire to the two CLs because they were closing in and pelting him with 6" fire? IIRC the decision to go to Montevideo was made somewhat later.

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Post by RF » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:34 pm

Bgile wrote:
Karl Heidenreich wrote:RF, you´re right but Exeter was more damaged than GS at RP. The only reason Exeter didn´t sunk was (again the Lutjens Syndrome) Langsdorf´s order to disengage and go to Montevideo.
I don't think this is true. Didn't Langsdorf shift fire to the two CLs because they were closing in and pelting him with 6" fire? IIRC the decision to go to Montevideo was made somewhat later.
Bgile is right, Ajax and Achilles attacked like destroyers. It was about this time that Langsdorf was knocked out and slightly wounded, this is where the Germans lost the initiative and lost the battle.
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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:54 pm

RF:
Bgile is right, Ajax and Achilles attacked like destroyers. It was about this time that Langsdorf was knocked out and slightly wounded, this is where the Germans lost the initiative and lost the battle.
That´s not the point. The point is about Langsdorf´s failure to achieve victory when he had the chance (and indeed he had it at hand). Of course he lost the battle when he was winning: Exeter was his challenge, once out of the combat GS could handle the other two cruisers with her superior armament, even if he decides to disengage.
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Post by Bgile » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:41 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote: That´s not the point. The point is about Langsdorf´s failure to achieve victory when he had the chance (and indeed he had it at hand). Of course he lost the battle when he was winning: Exeter was his challenge, once out of the combat GS could handle the other two cruisers with her superior armament, even if he decides to disengage.
He didn't have the chance to sink Exeter. It would have taken quite some time to do, and he'd have been absolutely wrecked by close range cruiser fire and torpedoes while he ignored them. He disabled Exeter and then had to turn to the other opponents in self preservation.

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