Nuclear warhead shell!

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Nuclear warhead shell!

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Has anybody thought about this? A naval gun capable of delivering a nuclear warhead as the US Army did with their famous Atomic Cannon which was only 11" gauge.
Every BB or BC from Schanhorst to the Yamato could had that capability. Some months ago Marcelo Malara sent this to me and that´s why I´m posting this now:
M65 Atomic Cannon
The "Atomic Cannon", the Army's largest artillery gun, was capable of firing both conventional and atomic warheads. This 47 ton gun (aka "Atomic Annie") was transported by two tractors. The drivers of the vehicles communicated with each other by means of a built-in telephone system. It proved to be a highly mobile weapons system and adaptable to most road conditions. It fired a 550 pound projectile and had an approximate range of 20 miles. Six years after the development of strategic atomic weapons, this road-transportable cannon gave a tactical atomic capability to US land forces.

Based on the design of the 280mm (about 11") German K5 Railroad Gun, the M65 was transported between detachable front and rear transport tractors. The Japanese had made a strong impression when they employed 280mm howitzers against Port-Arthur during their war against Russia in 1904-5. The French and the Russians collaborated afterwards to develop a similar weapon.

Picatinny Arsenal received the mission to develop an artillery shell able to carry nuclear payload in 1949. Basically, this meant scaling a 240mm shell, the Army largest field artillery shell in World War II, up to 280mm. The project’s entire design team was Robert Schwartz, who completed his preliminary sketches during a period of 15 days spent alone in a locked room at the Pentagon. He sharpened the details in another locked room at Picatinny. The Chief of Staff of the Army at the time, General J. Lawton Collins, thought enough of Schwartz’s effort to cite him in his memoirs over a quarter of a century later.

The next problem was to sell the product to the Pentagon. This would not have happened if Samuel Feltman, chief of the Ballistics Section of the Ordnance Department’s Research and Development Division, had not pushed the project to approval. This goes along way to explain why Picatinny has a research building named after Feltman. Then, Schwartz had to rush to procure equipment and assemble a staff to carry out the three-year development effort.

Dwight David Eisenhower took the oath of office on Tuesday, January 20, 1953. It was the most elaborate inaugural pageant ever held. About 22,000 service men and women and 5,000 civilians were in the parade, which included 50 state and organization floats costing $100,000. There were also 65 musical units, 350 horses, 3 elephants, an Alaskan dog team, and the 280-millimeter atomic cannon.

A single test shot was fired seven miles at the Nevada Test site at 8:30am, local time, on May 25, 1953. A 15-kiloton test fired from a 280-mm cannon at the Nevada Proving Grounds. Conducted at Frenchman's Flat, Nevada, the Atomic Cannon test was history's first atomic artillery shell fired from the Army's new 280-mm artillery gun. Operation Upshot-Knothole consisted of 11 atmospheric detonations, took place at the Nevada Test Site in 1953. There were three airdrops, seven tower shots and one warhead fired from an atomic cannon. An experiment in this testing was to determine the effects of a nuclear explosion on a B-50 aircraft. About 21,000 military personnel participated in Upshot-Knothole as part of the Desert Rock V exercise.

Views differ on Ike’s nuclear threats in early 1953- for example, Maurice Matloff, in American Military History, who saw a general threat being offered to Moscow and Pyongyang, North Korea; Burton I. Kaufman, in The Korean War: Challenges in Crisis, Credibility, and Command, who saw no direct threat being made to China; and Timothy J. Botti, in Ace in the Hole: Why the United States Did Not Use Nuclear Weapons in the Cold War, 1945 to 1965, who saw increased Chinese flexibility at Panmunjom, North Korea, as being “probably influenced by rumors that the administration had let circulate around the Far East that the U.S. was stationing more atomic bombers in Okinawa.” Others saw the stately and visible progress of an atomic cannon across the Pacific as a crucial influence.

The first atomic cannon went into service in 1952, and was deactivated in 1963. Throughout the 1950s, the Army deployed nuclear cannons to Europe even though they were obsolete as soon as they arrived. Guarded by infantry platoons, these guns were hauled around the forests on trucks to keep the Soviets from guessing their location. Weighing 83 tons, the cannon could not be airlifted and took two tractors to move its road-bound bulk. It was a glamorous weapon to be sure, but it did not fit into the Pentomic structure of the Army, and it siphoned off precious funding that the Army desperately needed for modernization.

In June 1995, a veteran testified at a personal hearing on service connection for hearing loss that he worked for three months on a nuclear or atomic cannon when he was in the service and they fired the cannon for three months, every working day and approximately three to four hours a day at five minute intervals. The veteran indicated that he was never given ear protection during service. He stated that he received medical treatment during service and was told that his hearing loss and tinnitus "would resolve themselves." The veteran further stated that he has had a "tremendous ringing in both of [his] ears" that "impairs [his] hearing" since service

Twenty were manufactured; eight appear to have survived the Cold War and are on public display today.

Army Ordnance Museum, Aberdeen, Maryland (still has the two large "prime movers" attached)
Atomic Museum, Albuquerque, New Mexico
Fort Sill Museum, Oklahoma
Freedom Park, Junction City, Kansas
Rock Island Arsenal, Memorial Field, Rock Island, Illinois
Virginia War Memorial Museum, Newport News, Virginia
Watervliet Arsenal, Watervliet, NY -- where they were all manufactured.
Yuma Proving Ground, Yuma, Arizona
There are arguments over the value of the atomic cannon, especially in regard to range, but General Collins believed the threat of its deployment had a role in bringing about the Korean armistice and did not doubt the presence in Europe "of our nuclear guns has contributed greatly as a deterrent to any offensive by the Soviets."


Country USA
Manufacturer Gun, Watervliet Arsenal; Carriage, Watertown Arsenal
Year Manufactured 1951
Armament Conventional and nuclear rounds; max range estimated 18 miles
Dimensions L=84'; W= 16.1'; H= 12.2'; WT (gun & carriage)= 83.3 tons
Imagine that WWII never taking place and an arms race between a Democratic US, a Monarchic Britain, a Comunist Russia, an Imperial Japan and (by 2006) a 74 year old Third Reich in such an arms race.
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Well, that would finally delete the armour from battleships.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Yep. A 10-15 Kiloton warhead fired safely from 20-30 K meters would vaporize the enemy and, if not sink it would contaminate it with radioactive fallout. Not much different to some Cold War scenarios, but only with guns instead of missiles.
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

So you have finally told yourself one of the reasons why battleships are no longer on the seas.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

That´s unfair. With such a weapon what will happen to target as big as an CVN aircraft carrier or to a battle group consisting of modern day frigates?
Even a SSBN properly targeted will be destroyed by a nuclear warhead. It´s not a question of having or not BBs or BCs. Maybe a WWII capital ship will have more chances to survive than a newer one such a USS Cole or HMS Sheffield. Those two ships were seriosly damaged by blasts that wouldn´t have stopped a WWII BB from continue fighting.
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Add to the 10 kt warhead a missile to take it 500 km away, and you will conclude that the only defense is the ACTIVE one provided by a Grumman Hawkeye scanning from the air for coming foes and 50 interceptors aboard.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Touché! :cool:

But... have you seen "Sum of all Fears". There is an interesting scene in which a CVN was hit by some missiles fired by Russian Flankers. There has been no real defense test of an attack against a fleet carrier since WWII. All surface vessels are prompt to be the target of airborne weapons... 11" shells included. There was an aircraft carrier called Glorious...

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Post by Bgile »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:Touché! :cool:

But... have you seen "Sum of all Fears". There is an interesting scene in which a CVN was hit by some missiles fired by Russian Flankers. There has been no real defense test of an attack against a fleet carrier since WWII. All surface vessels are prompt to be the target of airborne weapons... 11" shells included. There was an aircraft carrier called Glorious...

Best regards.
I don't think this is true. Tests are conducted against the first ship in each class. Also, USS America was tested to destruction recently.

IRT nuclear artillery, the US had (or does have) nuclear shells in 155mm size.

Also, don't assume nulear weapons are always in the 10kt or greater size. I think there are some that are less than 1 kt.
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Post by tommy303 »

The Atomic Energy Museum at Kirland AFB near Albuquerque NM has a 16-inch nuclear shell on display.

http://www.6v6gt.com/Atomic/Image007.jpg

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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

tommy:

Which was the use of such a shell? Naval?

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Post by tommy303 »

Yes, they were intended for the USS Iowa class battleships.

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Post by tommy303 »

Official designation was 16-in Mk23. It would appear that 50 were made and entered service in 1956, and in the Iowa, New Jersey and Wisconsin, Turret II magazines were remodeled by addition of a secure area housing ten such nuclear shells (although doubt remains as to whether or not any of the battleships ever carried any). They appear to have been withdrawn and deactivated by the end of 1962.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Hey, Bgile would love this: an Iowa with nuclear warhead shells: the super dreadnought of all time. Just wait until Yamato dares to appear in the radar screen... :!:
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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