Battle of The River Plate: Round 2

[RF]

Assuming the Germans had discovered Harwoods's true position while Graf Spee was in Montevideo and as a result Hitler forbade scuttling as well as internment, what were Langsdorf's chances of fighting his way past the three British cruisers and escaping to the open Atlantic?

[Bgile]

I think the British would have been able to shadow him indefinitely because they were faster. There was also the possibility they would close in at night and launch torpedo attacks.

I don't think his odds were very good, but not hopeless.

[Gary]

Graf Spee had expended about two thirds of her main battery ammunition.
She could in theory shoot her way past the cruisers provided her aim was good before her magazines ran out.
She would then have the thousands and thousands of miles home journey to undertake.
If by a miracle, Graf Spee did shoot her way past the cruisers then she would have virtually no 11 inch shells left to defend herself on the long run home.

I wouldnt want to be aboard Graf Spee in such a scenerio

[Karl Heidenreich]

Gary:

I wouldnt want to be aboard Graf Spee in such a scenerio

I wouldn´t like to be on board Graf Spee at all.

Is it true that Langsdorf had the chance to run and hide instead of engaging the three cruisers? If it´s true then the man is guilty for the loss of his ship, a Heavy Cruiser (it´s unimportant if they call it pocket battleship or battlestar or whatever), facing almost incredible odds against three enemy vessels.

[Tiornu]

One of Spee's turrets had gone out of action during the fight. I don't know if it had been fixed or not. Likewise, the FC system had taken damage which may or may not have been fixed. The best speed was somewhere around 24 knots. Spee was in a serious predicament.

[Gary]

I believe the problem was in "A" turret - apparently something to do with a pin for a loading mechinism.

[miro777]

the odds were defiantly against the Graf Spee...

and Karl, Langsdorf had the information that the heavy cruiser
HMS Cumberland is nearby...
some sources even say, that he thought HMS Hood, HMS Eagle and Dunkerque were around the corner....
so don't blame this man...
he was a great captain and he did the right thing...


adios
miro

[RF]

I think the British would have been able to shadow him indefinitely because they were faster. There was also the possibility they would close in at night and launch torpedo attacks.

I don't think his odds were very good, but not hopeless.

But the British didn't have radar then, and on a moonless night.... Bismarck didn't have superior speed but still shook off Suffolk by that 270 degree turn.....
And don't forget that Altmark was still available as a supply and repair ship.

[RF]

As a separate issue, would the Langsdorfs' position have been easier if he had gone to Bahia Blanca instead of Montevideo?

[marcelo_malara]

Bahia Blanca is not an easy port as seen on a map. It has some banks surrounding the entrance channel. You can download a nautical chart of the port from http://www.multicascos.com.br/mapoteca/ARGENTINA/H256 Bahia Blanca.tif. I think that the best port for GS was Mar del Plata, located about 200 nm to the South of Buenos Aires. It has no channel and has waters deep enough all around, so the GS could have manouvered at will once free from the jettys.

[RF]

One of Spee's turrets had gone out of action during the fight. I don't know if it had been fixed or not. Likewise, the FC system had taken damage which may or may not have been fixed. The best speed was somewhere around 24 knots. Spee was in a serious predicament.

Which turret? I haven't seen this stated anywhere, not by Dudley Pope or by F.W.Rasenack as far as I can recall. The only problem I thought that the Spee had with gunnery related to the fire control and director for the 15 cm guns.

[Tiornu]

I believe it was the forward turret. See Grove's book.

[miro777]

hey....
does anybody know why Langsdorf decided to sail to Uruguay, which was neutral, rather then Argentinia...from which my sources said, would be more german friendly...?

adios
miro

btw: i haven't heard about problems in the turrent either...

[marcelo_malara]

Argentina was neutral too. Inspite of the Germans been more liked than the British, there were no posibilities that Argentina would endanger her neutrality allowing for example more time for repairs than Uruguay.

[RF]

hey....
does anybody know why Langsdorf decided to sail to Uruguay, which was neutral, rather then Argentinia...from which my sources said, would be more german friendly...?

adios
miro

btw: i haven't heard about problems in the turrent either...

I believe F.W. Rasenack gave in his book the reason was that Montevideo was much closer to Graf Spee than the Argentine alternatives and that the shallow depth of the Parana estuary could clog up the Graf Spee's water intakes.

It isn't clear whether Langsdorf had charts for the River Plate basin. I suppose if he had he could have played a real surprise card - and go to Asuncion, where he could have kept Graf Spee for months....