Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

[alecsandros]

For instance, if Rheinubung went according to plan, and Rodney was escorting a convoy, Bismarck would sink her in 10 minutes and Prinz Eugen would destroy the convoy in a couple of hours :)

Well, if the experience of Scheer attacking a convoy with just one AMC escorting it is anything to go by this looks unlikely..... even if Rodney is quickly destroyed the convoy could scatter in all directions and would be difficult for even two ships to run them all to ground. Consider also the presemce of other escort ships, including torpedo carrying destroyers which would have to be dealt with, giving the merchant ships more time to scatter. And torpedo carrying escorts pose a much bigger threat if the Prinz Eugen is involved given its much greater vulneribility to that form of attack.

Clearly,
IT would have been more difficult,
but the outcome would have been the same, unless the number of escorts was significant.

Remember Bismarck had 4 floatplanes that could be used to track the fleeing merchants (Scheer only had 1 operational, IIRC)

[Guest]

Don' t forget that during the final fight between Bismarck & Home Fleet, the mighty guns of Rodney obtains more results than King George V on barbettes and armour of Bismarck... !
We are now shure of this, observing the films of Bismarck's wreck !!!

Indeed,
but with the Bismarck in good shape, Rodney would have been sunk in maximum 10 minutes...

Oh come on!
This is going back to what I said some months ago on another thread, why is it that everyone thinks that Bismarck was not only unsinkable but invincible? The KGv's were well powerful armoured and armed (when their guns were sorted out) ships, as were the Nelsons. It all depends on who gets the most telling hits first, remember the Nelsons were built after WW1 with many of the lessons learned from confronting German heavy guns - at Jutland even old Warspite took a beating when her jammed rudder took her too close the the enemy line, but she survived. To say that Bismarck would have sunk Rodney within 10 minutes is utterly rediculous and without a shred of evidence and quite insulting. My guess is that they would have given each other a battering and Bismarck would have used her superior speed to get away, thats if she didn't use it to avoid battle in the first place which would have been the sensible move.

[Guest]

Don' t forget that during the final fight between Bismarck & Home Fleet, the mighty guns of Rodney obtains more results than King George V on barbettes and armour of Bismarck... !
We are now shure of this, observing the films of Bismarck's wreck !!!

Indeed,
but with the Bismarck in good shape, Rodney would have been sunk in maximum 10 minutes...

Oh come on!
This is going back to what I said some months ago on another thread, why is it that everyone thinks that Bismarck was not only unsinkable but invincible? The KGv's were well powerful armoured and armed (when their guns were sorted out) ships, as were the Nelsons. It all depends on who gets the most telling hits first, remember the Nelsons were built after WW1 with many of the lessons learned from confronting German heavy guns - at Jutland even old Warspite took a beating when her jammed rudder took her too close the the enemy line, but she survived. To say that Bismarck would have sunk Rodney within 10 minutes is utterly rediculous and without a shred of evidence and quite insulting. My guess is that they would have given each other a battering and Bismarck would have used her superior speed to get away, thats if she didn't use it to avoid battle in the first place which would have been the sensible move.

Gentlemen,
I don't know what is happening to the forum, in my last post I have been described as 'a guest'!
Paul Mercer

[northcape]

Don' t forget that during the final fight between Bismarck & Home Fleet, the mighty guns of Rodney obtains more results than King George V on barbettes and armour of Bismarck... !
We are now shure of this, observing the films of Bismarck's wreck !!!

Indeed,
but with the Bismarck in good shape, Rodney would have been sunk in maximum 10 minutes...

Oh come on!
This is going back to what I said some months ago on another thread, why is it that everyone thinks that Bismarck was not only unsinkable but invincible? The KGv's were well powerful armoured and armed (when their guns were sorted out) ships, as were the Nelsons. It all depends on who gets the most telling hits first, remember the Nelsons were built after WW1 with many of the lessons learned from confronting German heavy guns - at Jutland even old Warspite took a beating when her jammed rudder took her too close the the enemy line, but she survived. To say that Bismarck would have sunk Rodney within 10 minutes is utterly rediculous and without a shred of evidence and quite insulting. My guess is that they would have given each other a battering and Bismarck would have used her superior speed to get away, thats if she didn't use it to avoid battle in the first place which would have been the sensible move.

I totally agree. I think, simply due to the much more modern design of Bismarck and the many flaws of the Rodney class, Bismarck would have many advantages. BUT, Rodney has 9x16 inch vs. 8x15 inch, and a well trained and motivated crew (as Bismarck, though). So I don't get it how one can think that Bismarck will sink Rodney in 10 minutes. It would be long and brutal pounding for both of them.

[alecsandros]

I totally agree. I think, simply due to the much more modern design of Bismarck and the many flaws of the Rodney class, Bismarck would have many advantages. BUT, Rodney has 9x16 inch vs. 8x15 inch, and a well trained and motivated crew (as Bismarck, though). So I don't get it how one can think that Bismarck will sink Rodney in 10 minutes. It would be long and brutal pounding for both of them.

... The Rodney had 0 protection against 15"/L52 gunfire from 0-22km at obliquities of up to 30*. Her belt was incredibly shallow, and the entire ship above the upper edge of the armor belt was unarmored, except the barbettes and main turrets. [and if you're thinking about the con tower, mind you only the very small forward position had 14" of armor, with the entire tower behind it being unarmored.]
... The Bismarck would dictate the range at all times, due to her 8kts+ advantage in speed
... The triple 16" gun turrets still had grouping and dispersion problems even after the improvements done in 1938-39. Patterns at 17,000y were reported to be 600y wide for 9 gun salvos.

---
Everyobdy thinks about the pounding Rodney gave Bismarck on May 27th.
But have you thought about switching tables ? And having the Rodney crippled, alone, with 3-4 torpedo hits, jamed rudder, max speed 7kts and an exhausted crew after 3 days and nights of continous battles ? And... with the Bismarck and TIrpitz closing fast, completely unmolested and undamaged ? And with Hipper and Prinz Eugen closing the range and opening fire and launching torpedoes ?

Bismarck resisted 80 minutes. HOw much would Rodney resist ?

[Ersatz Yorck]

For instance, if Rheinubung went according to plan, and Rodney was escorting a convoy, Bismarck would sink her in 10 minutes and Prinz Eugen would destroy the convoy in a couple of hours :)

Well, if the experience of Scheer attacking a convoy with just one AMC escorting it is anything to go by this looks unlikely..... even if Rodney is quickly destroyed the convoy could scatter in all directions and would be difficult for even two ships to run them all to ground. Consider also the presemce of other escort ships, including torpedo carrying destroyers which would have to be dealt with, giving the merchant ships more time to scatter. And torpedo carrying escorts pose a much bigger threat if the Prinz Eugen is involved given its much greater vulneribility to that form of attack.

While I agree with the difficulty of chasing down merchants fleeing in all directions, I don't think the captain of Bismarck would just have disregarded a torpedo threat. And Bismarck hardly proved invulnerable to torpedoes . A jammed rudder from a destroyer launched torpedo would have been just as bad as one from an aircraft torpepdo. Two ships hunting down merchants would surely have been better than one, and I don't see how the presence of PE would be a liability.

However, I think this whole scenario would never have happened. BM and PE together would not have attacked a convoy with a battleship escort. That was not their mission and would have risked unnecessary damage.

[alecsandros]

However, I think this whole scenario would never have happened. BM and PE together would not have attacked a convoy with a battleship escort. That was not their mission and would have risked unnecessary damage.

According to Rheinubung's outline, they were expected to do exactly that.

[northcape]

Everyobdy thinks about the pounding Rodney gave Bismarck on May 27th.
But have you thought about switching tables ? And having the Rodney crippled, alone, with 3-4 torpedo hits, jamed rudder, max speed 7kts and an exhausted crew after 3 days and nights of continous battles ? And... with the Bismarck and TIrpitz closing fast, completely unmolested and undamaged ? And with Hipper and Prinz Eugen closing the range and opening fire and launching torpedoes ?

Bismarck resisted 80 minutes. HOw much would Rodney resist ?

that is not the point of this topic - we are talking about an undamaged rodney vs. an undamaged bismarck. as i stated before, bismarck would have many advantages in that fight, but to sink rodney within 10 minutes would require a lucky hit in the magazines (like on hood, or like the hit rodney scored on bismarck on 27th). also, the performance of rodney on the 27th shows that, while there were maybe theoretical dispersion issues, her ordnance in practice was flawless.
no doubt, bismarck was overall better armoured and faster, but i don't buy the 10 minutes-assumption at all.

[alecsandros]

also, the performance of rodney on the 27th shows that, while there were maybe theoretical dispersion issues, her ordnance in practice was flawless.

... But she needed 15 minutes to get the range right... against a target moving at 7kts...
And as I understand it, she was not trouble-free at all during the engagement, with about 65% output throughout.

no doubt, bismarck was overall better armoured and faster, but i don't buy the 10 minutes-assumption at all.

Hood was destroyed in 5 minutes... Kirishima in about 10 minutes... Bretagne - likewise.

Presuming an engagement at 20km, Bismarck would almost certainly get the range first, straddle, and then commence fire at maximum rate of fire. Finding the range would take 4 to 5 salvos, coresponding to 2.5 - 3 minutes.

IF Rodney would remain on course, allthough she was straddled without having straddled back, she would be sunk in a few minutes, as the barrage of 38cm shells would be tight, accurate and would not encounter any portion of armor capable of withstanding those hits. There would be some 20-22 shells/minute, and considering a moderate accuracy of 4% at that range, it means Rodney would be hit by a shell at every minute. My guess is after 4-5 shells, one would find the magazines and that would be it.

[RF]

However, I think this whole scenario would never have happened. BM and PE together would not have attacked a convoy with a battleship escort. That was not their mission and would have risked unnecessary damage.

According to Rheinubung's outline, they were expected to do exactly that.

The Fleet Commander was given discretion to use Bismarck to engage and draw off the escorting convoy battleship..... where the German Fleet included Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as well as Prinz Eugen. But even here there was no specific intent to destroy the battleship escort, merely to draw it away from the merchantmen so they could be attacked by the other German ships.

[RF]

[quote="alecsandros
IF Rodney would remain on course, allthough she was straddled without having straddled back, she would be sunk in a few minutes, as the barrage of 38cm shells would be tight, accurate and would not encounter any portion of armor capable of withstanding those hits. There would be some 20-22 shells/minute, and considering a moderate accuracy of 4% at that range, it means Rodney would be hit by a shell at every minute. My guess is after 4-5 shells, one would find the magazines and that would be it.[/quote]

I think it might take more than 4 to 5 shell hits, even at long range. Where Bismarck is likely to gain advantage will be in knocking out the gunnery control of Rodney; once that is done then Bismarck can pound Rodney at leisure. Magazine explosions become academic....

[Ersatz Yorck]

However, I think this whole scenario would never have happened. BM and PE together would not have attacked a convoy with a battleship escort. That was not their mission and would have risked unnecessary damage.

According to Rheinubung's outline, they were expected to do exactly that.

Not as far as I know. The Germans knew that a battleship would never be able to sink as many merchant ships as the submarines did. The purpose of a strong raider on the Atlantic lanes was to disrupt convoy schedules, force the British to delay convoys until battleship escort was avaliable and generally overextend the Royal Navy. Even a successful engagement with a British battleship where the Bismarck was damaged would throw away all that, and the Germans were well aware of that. It was the same thing with all German surface raiders, from Hilfskreuzer to Battleships, the primary mission was not to sink stuff, and certainly not warships, the mission was to be there and disrupt shipping through their very presence.

[alecsandros]

I think it might take more than 4 to 5 shell hits, even at long range. Where Bismarck is likely to gain advantage will be in knocking out the gunnery control of Rodney; once that is done then Bismarck can pound Rodney at leisure. Magazine explosions become academic....

:)

If Rodney would be very lucky, maybe...
It is not difficult to imagine trajectories of shells going all the way to the magazines, when considedring the 2 ships on parallel courses.
Also, it is important to note that the barbettes were not proof against 38cm gunfire, so a lot of bad things can happen there.

[northcape]

[quote="alecsandros"]
... But she needed 15 minutes to get the range right... against a target moving at 7kts...
And as I understand it, she was not trouble-free at all during the engagement, with about 65% output throughout.

[quote]

one must not forget, that due to her rudder issue, Bismarck had a totally unpredictable course (which made it difficult to impossible for her to shoot accurately, but which also made her a difficult target, no matter if she was only doing 7 kts).

i still don't see why Bismarck should find her target on Rodney so much faster than the other way round. and as lucky hits go, it only took one(!) hit of Rodney to knock out 50% of Bismarck's main armament.

[paul.mercer]

I'm sorry chaps, but this just does not wash! We have had this converstion before and the conclusion was that if Bismarck wanted to fight it out with Rodney she would have to stay within range making her speed advantage be of minimum use. Rodney was fairly well armoured - maybe not as well as Bismarck but all these theories about penetratration of shells is just that, you do not have to sink a ship to win the battle, hits on the upperworks can and will destroy command structures and crew, radar installations, range finders etc, so please do not try and say that Bismarck is not going to get hit or if she does will just shrug off hits from a 16" and sink Rodney in 10 minutes because she would'nt - pictures of the wreck show the devastating effect of Rodney's shells on Bismarcks superstructure. One more thing, everyone seems to be comparing a fully battleworthy Bismarck against a Rodney which was on her way for a refit, put a fully refitted Rodney with a good crew against Bismarck and I think the result would be a very battered if not sunk, Bismarck. In any case as I have said before, Lutyens is not going to risk a fight with such a powerfully armed ship if the does'nt have to, he will use his speed and make a run for it.