Bismarck vs. Rodney: hand to hand?

[paulcadogan]

Prince of Wales received 7 hits in 3 minutes, while not scoring any hits whilst being under fire..and who knows what may have happened without the fake torpedo alarm

That is incorrect - PoW scored her third hit while under fire from Prinz Eugen and her aim was disrupted (and her Y-turret shell ring jammed) by her evasive action around the sinking Hood. Who knows what may have happened if she had been able to hold her course....

Let's be fair...give both sides their due... in so many encounters with the RN in both wars the toughness of German ships, their gunnery prowess and the effectiveness of their shells was demonstrated - not just theory, it is indisputable. But the RN could and did hit back with devastating effect - that is indisputable too - and the German ships on the receiving end, if they failed to escape, did as Admiral Raeder predicted - they died with dignity!

[RF]

I'm not clear that this would necessarily be the case.

What part of "Fleet Flagship" and Admiral Tovey being "Fleet Admiral" is unclear?

Nothing. It wasn't what I was asking.

Would there be anyone else higher than Tovey in command of the ships at the Denmark Strait that morning?

Logically no, apart from Churchill as Prime Minister or King George VI as Head of State. But that again is not what I was asking.

Would KGV somehow NOT have led the force?

That depends on whether Hood or KGV is flagship.

Would you now like to address what my query was about? Namely why must the encounter at DS begin in a different fashion? The only difference is the placement of KGV instead of POW and the change in commander. Apart from that Tovey is in Hollands' position. And in that scenario it is likely that flag would have been transferred from KGV to Hood, so Hood would be lead ship.....

[RF]

I agree; KGV also experienced problems with her quads during the final battle.
It's true the problems started about 30 minutes after opening fire (and not after 10 minutes as in Prince of Wales) , but the effects of the ship being taken under fire from both Prinz Eugen and Bismarck should also be noted [as it would be the case with KGV in the lead]. In the hystorical battle, Prince of Wales received 7 hits in 3 minutes, while not scoring any hits whilst being under fire... and who knows what may have happened without the fake torpedo alarm [which was probably triggered by the sounds of the sinking HMS Hood]

There is also the issue of Hood firing on the wrong ship. Now whilst Captain Leach made the correct identification he wouldn't now be there, would Tovey have made Hollands' error?
If so there is the possibility of both Hood and KGV firing on Prinz Eugen and Bismarck not coming under any fire at all.

[RF]

But the RN could and did hit back with devastating effect - that is indisputable too - and the German ships on the receiving end, if they failed to escape, did as Admiral Raeder predicted - they died with dignity!

True. But let us not forget that the weakest of the four ships in this battle turned out to be the only one to survive the war.....

[dunmunro]

I'm not clear that this would necessarily be the case.

What part of "Fleet Flagship" and Admiral Tovey being "Fleet Admiral" is unclear?

Nothing. It wasn't what I was asking.

Would there be anyone else higher than Tovey in command of the ships at the Denmark Strait that morning?

Logically no, apart from Churchill as Prime Minister or King George VI as Head of State. But that again is not what I was asking.

Would KGV somehow NOT have led the force?

That depends on whether Hood or KGV is flagship.

Would you now like to address what my query was about? Namely why must the encounter at DS begin in a different fashion? The only difference is the placement of KGV instead of POW and the change in commander. Apart from that Tovey is in Hollands' position. And in that scenario it is likely that flag would have been transferred from KGV to Hood, so Hood would be lead ship.....

Hood was fully worked up and was fitted out as a flagship, so it was logical for Holland to use Hood rather than PoW, and this was recognized as one reason that Hood was placed in the Van, since to do otherwise would have meant the Admiral was "leading from the rear". OTOH, KGV was fully worked up, had better FC, communications and armour than Hood and had been fitted out and used as a flagship, so it would have been logical for Holland to use KGV as his flag, and then place KGV in the van, where she belonged.

[dunmunro]

I agree; KGV also experienced problems with her quads during the final battle.
It's true the problems started about 30 minutes after opening fire (and not after 10 minutes as in Prince of Wales) , but the effects of the ship being taken under fire from both Prinz Eugen and Bismarck should also be noted [as it would be the case with KGV in the lead]. In the hystorical battle, Prince of Wales received 7 hits in 3 minutes, while not scoring any hits whilst being under fire... and who knows what may have happened without the fake torpedo alarm [which was probably triggered by the sounds of the sinking HMS Hood]

There is also the issue of Hood firing on the wrong ship. Now whilst Captain Leach made the correct identification he wouldn't now be there, would Tovey have made Hollands' error?
If so there is the possibility of both Hood and KGV firing on Prinz Eugen and Bismarck not coming under any fire at all.

PoW (and KGV) had superior optics in their DCTs which enabled PoW to correctly identify Bismarck, and there's no reason to doubt that KGV would have made the correct choice as well.

It has already been pointed out that PoW did score hits while under fire.

[paulcadogan]

But the RN could and did hit back with devastating effect - that is indisputable too - and the German ships on the receiving end, if they failed to escape, did as Admiral Raeder predicted - they died with dignity!

True. But let us not forget that the weakest of the four ships in this battle turned out to be the only one to survive the war.....

Well, obviously....she escaped!

[RNfanDan]

To address RF's apparent lack of clarity, Tovey would NOT have "transferred flag" to HMS Hood; KGV was the flagship of the Home Fleet, and obviously, Tovey would have had no admiral aboard HMS Hood.

Tovey would be leading the formation in a combination of Hood and KGV. He had purportedly considered instructing Holland to place PoW in the lead, but in the end, refrained from doing so out of respect for "so senior an officer". I also doubt Tovey would have "handcuffed" Hood in the manner Holland did (maneuvering the two ships together as one), but I cannot state this with certainty; I suspect that Holland only did so, because PoW was an unknown quantity in both operational capacity and crew competence-- circumstances not shared by HMS Hood, if accompanying KGV. Other than keeping Hood behind and at some lee of his own flagship, so Tovey would be hoping to take the brunt of the enemy's initial fire, it is likely that Hood would have more flexibility in movement and thus be able to pursue her own best gunnery course---just as Leach did in the real battle (but without permission).

Of course, in any alternative hypothesis there can be no absolute certainty, which is why I usually avoid this sort of thread--particularly when a topic is subject to unilateral advocacy.


Dan

[alecsandros]

It has already been pointed out that PoW did score hits while under fire.

Last hit by Prince of Wales came at 5:59.

Bismarck shifted fire to her at 6:01.

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
We are almost at the point where we go back to another thread in which a fully operational KGv meets Bismarck one on one - the arguments were inconclusive in that as well!
It would appear that despite all the posts Alecsandros will not accept that Rodneys armour and armament was not as weak as he claims or that Rodney would have been capable of giving Bismarck a good fight. The fact that KGv's guns gave trouble after 30 minutes made very little difference, Bismarck was beaten by then. I suppose the next round will be that either KGv or PoW would have been sunk or blown up in x amount of minutes!

[alecsandros]

Paul,
In theory, a 50.000 ton battlecruiser with 12" belt, 2+3+2" of armored decks and 8x15" guns should have put a good fight against a 50.000 tons battleship, with 12.6" belt, 2+4" of armored decks and 8x15" guns.

but in practice, it didn't...

[Dave Saxton]

a 50.000 tons battleship, with 12.6" belt, 2+4" of armored decks and 8x15" guns.

but in practice, it didn't...

That should more accurately read: a 12.6" belt + 4.7" scarps. Any shell defeating the belt must either defeat the panzer deck at an impossible striking angle or the slopes at a very unfavorable striking angle as well. Once the battle range comes well inside of 20km such as about 16km in the case of the Hood, and for some reason an oblique target angle can not be maintained, then any ship like Bismarck will hold a significant advantage in terms of vitals protection. It would still not be advisable for ships like the Bismarck to seek battle at such ranges. The vulnerablity of the weapons systems and sensors is very great even if the vitals remain fairly safe. (the vitals are rather exposed as well for ships without the German style protection scheme at such ranges.)

At +20km both the Rodney and Bismarck should have fairly significant staying power. The one that receives the first significantly damaging hits would probably be whittled down by attrition sooner in that case, but the likely out come at greater ranges is a disengagement by one side or the other-with both sides bloodied.

a 50.000 ton battlecruiser with 12" belt, 2+3+2" of armored decks

The material quality of the Hood's deck protection isn't at all comparable to materials like Wh, or STS, or NCA, and it was a laminate, so take those inch totals with a grain of salt.

Note: That had KGV been in lead at DS, Bismarck would still have likely targeted Hood. A KGV is still rather exposed at 16km with out a very oblique target angle. The Hood might be better suited to the historical battle ranges anyway. It's probably a good job that Leach turned away when he did with the range down to 12.8km!

[alecsandros]

That should more accurately read: a 12.6" belt + 4.7" scarps. ....

The material quality of the Hood's deck protection isn't at all comparable to materials like Wh, or STS, or NCA, and it was a laminate, so take those inch totals with a grain of salt. .....

Exactly - tis is the trick of comparing superficial values. So, even if Hood and Bismarck seemed to have similar characteristics, in reality Bismarck was a far more powerfull ship.

It's the same case when comparing Rodney with Bismarck: allthough it may seem that the Rodney could put a good fight, I don't think that would be the case: the materials used, arrangement, geometry of the armor, reliability, accuracy and integration of the systems into the main artillery, etc, were all very different from ship to ship.

[RF]

To address RF's apparent lack of clarity, Tovey would NOT have "transferred flag" to HMS Hood; KGV was the flagship of the Home Fleet, and obviously, Tovey would have had no admiral aboard HMS Hood.

I don't see that there is a lack of clarity on my part. It may be that Tovey would not transfer his flag; however Hood was the ''senior'' ship with over 20 years service, KGV was new and still untried in battle. It may also be that Tovey wouldn't transfer if (as he did) consider Hood should be astern of KGV due to its greater vulnerability to Bismarcks' fire. It is all conjecture; but not I think 100% certain that KGV would be flagship.

Tovey would be leading the formation in a combination of Hood and KGV. He had purportedly considered instructing Holland to place PoW in the lead, but in the end, refrained from doing so out of respect for "so senior an officer". I also doubt Tovey would have "handcuffed" Hood in the manner Holland did (maneuvering the two ships together as one), but I cannot state this with certainty; I suspect that Holland only did so, because PoW was an unknown quantity in both operational capacity and crew competence-- circumstances not shared by HMS Hood, if accompanying KGV. Other than keeping Hood behind and at some lee of his own flagship, so Tovey would be hoping to take the brunt of the enemy's initial fire, it is likely that Hood would have more flexibility in movement and thus be able to pursue her own best gunnery course---just as Leach did in the real battle (but without permission).

The reason why I posed the question is that Holland was in a position at 5AM on the 24 May that was not of his choosing - Bismarck was running past him and not closing head on as Holland wanted. Therefore Holland was forced to approach Bismarck from a flank position, which exposed Hood to the full broadside of the Germans whilst restricting Hoods' fire whiie closing on the tightest course possible. As such Holland had to use both ships as one gunnery formation. It may be that Holland would have allowed Leach freedom of movement once Hood was fully engaged - we don't know as Hood didn't last long enough.
Tovey would be in the same situation. He would have to close quickly as a single formation. Bismarck could still fire on Hood whether Hood was lead or following ship.

[RNfanDan]

To address RF's apparent lack of clarity, Tovey would NOT have "transferred flag" to HMS Hood; KGV was the flagship of the Home Fleet, and obviously, Tovey would have had no admiral aboard HMS Hood.

I don't see that there is a lack of clarity on my part.

Poor choice of words perhaps, but I was referring to your earlier statement:

I'm not clear that this would necessarily be the case.

My apology for not having stated it better.

The reason why I posed the question is that Holland was in a position at 5AM on the 24 May that was not of his choosing - [and...] Tovey would be in the same situation. He would have to close quickly as a single formation. Bismarck could still fire on Hood whether Hood was lead or following ship.

Tovey may or may not have responded by turning north during the afternoon/night, as Holland did. If he did so, your postulation would probably apply, at least to some degree; but if not, and Tovey maintained a more westerly course and/or slowed to hedge his bet (more likely, with KGV's limited endurance), the intercept could easily have been more favorable. Even as it was, Holland was highly successful to achieve what he did, given he lost so much "jump" on the German force. Any more westerly bearing (including NW) on his part would have caused at least a more favorable, albeit later, intercept.

Remembering that one cannot positively tie-in that which was with that which may have been, there is at least a good chance that a full 18 guns would be brought to bear on the Germans, in the initial going. I still see no reason why Tovey would up his entire staff and transfer to Hood, with its long overdue refit having been postponed for months, when he had a much better and newer vessel for the purpose already under him.

If these variables went the other way, the entire theory about Bismarck "running into" Rodney could just as easily be a non-event, given that the DS encounter would not occur in the same place and time, if at all. We might just as well say that Rodney might not have been left alone in any event, for BS to encounter her.

--D--