Naval Senarios

[direwolf]

Imagine if the Graff Spre Had lived to join up with Terpits, Bismark, Schoanhorst, and Prince Eugne. What a mess the Atlantic would have been.

[Tiornu]

By the time Tirpitz was ready for operations, there was no longer an option for operating out in the Atlantic.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Yes, but imagine it!

[Tiornu]

All right....
Can I stop now?

[ontheslipway]

Would be great for Dr Ballard, all those wrecks located on one stop...

[Gary]

If the scenerio mentioned in the original post were possible then I think that every aircraft that the RAF had available would be bombing the German harbours housing these ships night after night.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Foeth wrote:

Would be great for Dr Ballard, all those wrecks located on one stop...

At least the Germans had a Navy that fought. Thats a lot more than many european countries can say about their "part" in the war... excluding Great Britain, of course, which was the one that beat the Germans.

Best regards!

[ontheslipway]

many navies fought in the war, there just weren't that many on the allied side. The French and Dutch navy continued to fight. Also, Britian didn't actually win the war. Germany was defeated by mainly the Russians.

[ostriker]

At least the Germans had a Navy that fought. Thats a lot more than many european countries can say about their "part" in the war... excluding Great Britain, of course, which was the one that beat the Germans.

Best regards!

Karl, do you don't think that if italian, french, and other europeans navies had the opportunity to hardly fight,they would have done it ? Im sure, for having read it in many books and report, that french, italian, sailors and commanders, wanted to do the best for their country. But, they were catched and taken has an hostage in some very bad and disgusting "political games", which were the defeat (for france), lack of fuel and mussolini fear after tarente (for italy).

Sure it is just my personal opinion, but i think that french and italian sailors were not so happy to be "spectator " or only take part in small action in the conflict.

Please Karl, dont make a mixture of political man and soldiers, and don't make a mixture of this war and which is happening nowadays.

Best regards

[Gary]

The main reason that Germany was unable to invade Britain was the 20 odd miles of sea between France and Britain.
Other European countries didnt have that luxury

[Karl Heidenreich]

Foeth wrote:

many navies fought in the war, there just weren't that many on the allied side. The French and Dutch navy continued to fight. Also, Britian didn't actually win the war. Germany was defeated by mainly the Russians.

I´ve been the one here on this very forum stating, now and on, that, indeed, the Soviet Union was the one that carried the heaviest bulk of the war: more than 20 million dead russians said a lot more than just words.
But Great Britain was the country that fought since 1939 until the fall on Third Reich and, we must not forget it, helped a lot Uncle Joe Stalin to withstand the fury of the Wehrmarcht:
From where the great American land convoys got with supplies into the USSR? Iran. Who made that road feasible: Great Britain. Which convoys got from the North Atlantic to the Artic Circle with supplies to help USSR? The British Convoy System.
Who fought and beat the German Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain: the RAF. Who fought the battle of the Atlantic against the U-Boat threat? RN. Who fought and beat the italians in Africa? Dessert Rats. Who fought in Norway, who fought in France, who fought in Greece and Crete and all the Meditarreanean? The British. Who beat Rommel? A guy called Montgomery. Who sent thousands of bomber raids over the Germans night after night? Bomber Command. Who landed in Normandy? The Britons with Canadians and the US...
And who, may I ask, invaded Holland with the Market Garden Operation in an attempt to free that country and end the war by December 1944? The British. It were British paratroopers the ones that made the heroic stand in the northern part of the Arnhem Bridge (now called John Frost Bridge). The Hotel Hartenstein in Arnhem is now a musseum of the "Red Devils". So I think that Europe, as a whole, has a some debt with the British.

"Never so many owed so much to so few"

Ostriker:

Please Karl, dont make a mixture of political man and soldiers, and don't make a mixture of this war and which is happening nowadays.

I´m not mixing the past with the present. And you must be the first to acknowledge that because after some of your postings I have changed a lot my opinion about the French and their contribution in the allied cause, which I am thankfull with you as I am with any persons that is sincere.
In this "thread" I was not referring to the French. I recently read some acounts about the debacle of the French Navy and it´s pitifull their position. And it´s a very sad thing that such fine ships and fine navy didn´t had the oportunity to serve better. But the Richelieu served quite well as far as I know, specially with a crew that was anti De Gaulle, thing that make me admire them more!
I´m sorry if whatever I wrote before made you feel uneasy but that was not the intention.

And now this "thread". If the Germans could managed, somehow, to put all those ships together, probably, they would be sunk. But in the process of doing so, their enemy (Royal Navy of course, there was nobody else to fight them) would suffer incredible casualties. The Bismarck alone sunk Hood and seriously damaged PoW (and I sustained that Bismarck was in position to send PoW to the bottom of the sea). What do you think would happened with Bismarck and Tirpitz + the twins + PE + pocket battleships in a life and death battle against Royal Navy? Surrender was not a German characteristic. Their motto was "Victory or Death".
It would have been some kind of battle which, at the end, would find each, German and British ships, lying on the sea floor for Dr. Ballard to find.

Best regads!

[ontheslipway]

I won't argue against Britains effort, but it is tempting:

From where the great American land convoys got with supplies into the USSR? Iran. Who made that road feasible: Great Britain.

>just a road!

Which convoys got from the North Atlantic to the Artic Circle with supplies to help USSR? The British Convoy System.

> From WWI. A system, not a war effort

Who fought the battle of the Atlantic against the U-Boat threat? RN.

> USN, RCN too

Who fought and beat the italians in Africa? Dessert Rats.

>If the USA did not supply weaponry, they would have lost. (However, the RN did hamper the German supply convoys considerably.)

Who fought in Norway, who fought in France, who fought in Greece and Crete and all the Meditarreanean?

>Who lost in Norway, lost in France, made a considerable error in Judgement in Greece? And lost at Dunkerque?

Who beat Rommel? A guy called Montgomery.

>Hey, you already mentioned the desert rats!

Who landed in Normandy? The Britons with Canadians and the US...

>And everybody else!

And who, may I ask, invaded Holland with the Market Garden Operation in an attempt to free that country and end the war by December 1944? The British.

>Yes, a total failure to cross the Rhine. I do think Monty was a bit bonkers...

So, no arguing against the vehement fighting spirit. But it were the russians who stopped the German Army. If Germany would have continued against Britain and ignored the Russians, things might have been different. Also musn't forget the Americans. Without their assistance Britain would have foundered.

[Karl Heidenreich]

So Foeth, let´s thank the British to be such a failure. I wonder where would be Holland nowadays without them. Probably speaking German and enlisting their youth in some SS division.

[ontheslipway]

Without them we would be the largerst seapower on earth and you would probably be speaking Dutch

[Karl Heidenreich]

Sorry, if that´s the case then, after the quick German conquest of Holland, we will all be speaking German, drinking schnaps and singing "Horst Wessel" as Dutch National Anthem.