Hood v Vittorio Veneto

[alecsandros]

... IN Bismarck, the upper deck was 50mm thick, with small areas of 80mm thickness. That would be enough to decap any shell up to 410mm with no problems whatsoever, so that the armored deck (of 80 to 95mm thickness) would be hit by a certainly decaped shell.

IN Littorio, upper deck is 36mm on 9mm , ensuring effective protection as a 40mm deck... NOt certain to decap shells above 350mm. Thus MAD would probably be hit by a caped shell.

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Alecsandros:
hi Alec,
.... a MAD that was anyway 55 mm more thick on Littorio's than on Bismarck @ centerline over magazines.....

Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

@Alecsandros:
hi Alec,
.... a MAD that was anyway 55 mm more thick on Littorio's than on Bismarck @ centerline over magazines.....

Bye, Alberto

... And very powerfull there indeed.

What appears vulnerable in this scenario (attack by 15"/L42 gun) seems machinery and especialy the outboard section with less then 100mm effective thickness. If a bad enough trajectory can be drawn from there to the magazines... Things may be bad. BUT, as you have pointed out, British shells tended to explode early, so hard to reach the magz...

Littorio vertical armor was probably impregnable by 15"/L42 at normal battle ranges...
Warspite vertical armor was probably vulnerable out to 25km at perfect parallel courses...

[Alberto Virtuani]

[quote]Slaterat wrote: "....." I think the Italians would be better off keeping the distance long and hoping to get a magazine hit...."/quote]
Hi,
I see your point and agree that Italians could have decided to keep far and to retire if it was necessary, of course, due to their superior speed.

However the proposed scenario here is a battle to the death, in which the purpose is not to save the ships but to come to a final daylight confrontation in the Med between RM and RN, without air strikes support.

The Littorio's were designed as "short range" attack weapons (albeit they were used as defensive ones..... ).
Their aft turrets could still bear on enemy on relative bearing of 20° ahead and their guns were extremely effective against vertical protection. However they were almost as well weak against horizontal protection, due to the flat trajectory of shells.

Therefore, IMHO, Italian should have forced a VERY short range battle, where long range precision and even firing rate is irrelevant against immune ships when confronted to ships with no immunity. Littorio's could have taken much damage but a single hit in the magazine would have obliterated the QE's as it was the case with HMS Hood.

Bye, Alberto

[Alberto Virtuani]

Alecsandros wrote: "What appears vulnerable in this scenario (attack by 15"/L42 gun) seems machinery and especialy the outboard section with less then 100mm effective thickness.... "

Hi Alec,
as you correctly said the point here is the statistical probability of a "bad" trajectory......
The outboard section of Littorio's is weaker than at centerline because it was considered that a shell should not hit it through the 40 mm (equivalent) upper deck, but only through the 70 mm KC upper belt. The weakness is present only in case of bombs striking "almost" vertically.

Up to an AoF of 35°, the design guarantees that the outboard section can be reached only through the upper belt when in a normal broadside confrontation (and 70 mm KC would surely decap a shell of any existing caliber). At very fine inclinations, as needed to quickly close range in our scenario, only when from very long distances (plunging fire) this design can be defeated, but again it's a matter of probability, in order to understand how many hits could be put by QE's at extreme ranges on a quickly approaching ship and how many hits were needed (statistically) to hit the outboard section not protected by the upper belt due to the inclination.....

Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

Ciao Alberto,
Excellent lead on the 35* angle of fall consideration...

Reading on http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_15-42_mk1.htm
It appears that the 15"/L42 gun firing standard charges of WW2 had the shell falling at 35,6 degrees from range of 27km, and at 40,7 degrees at 29km.

Both are very long ranges, close to the gun maximum range, and I would expect them to be extremely unlikely in producing hits...

So the only portion that remains realy vulnerable in this scenario is the machinery space of Littorio (to plunging fire).

Best,

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Alecsandros:
Hi Alec,
thanks for the data re. British 15" ! .

I agree with you. At centerline, the 100 mm homogeneous deck over machinery is not 100% proved to be safe against main caliber shells (especially the slow very large caliber ones....).
The Italian 15" (due to its high velocity and flat trajectory) would never be able to defeat a 100 mm deck at average ranges, but the slower British one is better in this sense: looking at the first table for horizontal penetration that you have linked above, I see the 15" was able to penetrate 102 mm deck at almost 26 km..... The second table is much more optimistic....

Dave (Saxton) posted above that the British gun was unable to penetrate a 5" deck under 32000 yards, therefore there is little chance that at considerably shorter distances (let's imagine that the first "lucky" hit can be scored at 23-24 km on the fast approaching Italian battleships) it can penetrate the 4" MAD (after having already penetrated the 40 mm equivalent upper deck and, probably, some heavy superstructures, that can activate the fuze as it possibly happened to the Warspite shell on Cesare, as we speak about a centerline hit.....) with an AoF that should be less than 35°......

The "risky" interval for the closing range Littorio's really seems to be a very short one, even adding to the centerline hits the possibility of outboard hits not "intercepted" by the upper belt, due to the fine inclination during the approach phase. Of course, I admit that heavy damage can be anyway inflicted to the ships during the run in, even without penetrating their vitals....

Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

Ciao Alberto,

I've been thinking about this possible battle.... Somewhere mid-1943, perfect clear day, in the Mediteranean. Both forces have info on the enemy location, some 50km distant. Say Sommerville and Iachino in command... I would expect Somerville to lay in wait, knowing that the Italians have spotted him, and closing with a delta of at least 10km/h (2 hours until gun range).
The British - Warspite (flagship), Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, would cruise in line abreast, perpendicular to the expected Italian attack course... (as relayed by the spotter plane).
The Italians - Littorio (flag), Vittorio Veneto and ROma, would charge at 28kts, in the direction identified by own spotter plane. First sighting could be done from ~ 35km and enemy disposition and course at the time could be well observed from 30km. The Italian battleships would already have projectiles loaded to be fired, and guns raised for 30km range. First salvos, (ranging salvos), would be fired by each Italian battlesihp at timely intervals of some 20 seconds, to avoid confusion over incorrect ranging of other ships salvos.

The British would not be able to reply effectively, but would fire anyway as per doctrine to not let the enemy un-answered. So first salvos of 4-guns each would be fired from 29km or so.

The Italians would alter course to a diagonal, in order to bring their aft guns to bear (but giving a longer approach time). Some heavy salvos would be exchanged in the first 8 mnutes, with British shells continuing to fire 4- gun salvos, guided by radars, straddling and hiting the lead ship - Littorio, 4 times in 8 minutes (1 on a forward main turret - damaged, 1 in the forecastle - speed reduced to 25kts, 1 through the second funnell - speed further reduced to 23kts temporarily, 1 in the main armor belt - projectile broken). Iachino would order Veneto and Roma to match speed with Littorio...

The Italians would fire vigorously as well, 3 x 3-gun salvos from each ship, initialy aimed at Warspite, and then engaging each British battleship. The extreme speed of the 15"/L50 gun would give 2 big advantages and 1 big disadvantage: the big advantage would be the low time of flight of shells towards targets. This assures faster target aquisition , as the Italian guns had about 40 seconds time of flight at 30km , versus 65 seconds for British gun. So faster obtaining of water columns and thus ranging. The second advantage would be hiting space, larger then for British gun. The disadvantage would be projectile dispersion - of around 600m for 3-gun salvos at 30km, narrowing down to 400m at 20km.

Thus, Warspite would probably be hit early on, by 2 shells - 1 through the con tower (but NOT the bridge), destroying the radars and killing several of the crew, the second through the aft part, damaging the stearing and one of the screws shafts.
Later, Queen Elizabeth would receive one hit in the forward main barbette, badly damaging it and the surrounding armor deck plating, and leaving the turret fixed at the given orientation.

With the battle getting down to 24km (continuing the diagonal approach), and 8 minutes elapsed time from the first salvo fired by Littorio, the British would hit Littorio 3 times successively, knocking out the aft command tower, 2 secondary turrets and damaging one of the power generators. In return, Valiant would receive one hit amidships, through the 200mm portion of the belt, going to the lower part of the funells , cutting one of the main smoke pipes, and hiting the opposite armored belt, exploding in contact with it and rupturing a hole in the hull. Valiant would drop to 15kts temporarily, but still firing well.

A 3-gun salvo from Queen Elizabeth would straddle Littorio, sending shrappnell and disabling the main radar, as well as further damaging the forecastle. Water would be coming in, and the damge to the one of the generators would not help in keeping it out. Speed would drop to 21kts temporarily.

[so far , 9 minutes and 220 shells with 8 hits fired by the British and 250 by the Italians producing 4 hits]

At 23km, the Italians would continue to fire on all British ships. Warspite would land another hit on Littorio, damaging her aft turret, jammed. Still Iachino would order a courageos turn, and keep Warspite still on track for the aft turret. Roma would hit Queen Elizabeth 2 times, badly damaging the forecastle and main con tower, with everybody on the bridge dead.

VEneto would hit Valiant again - in one of the engine rooms, killing alot of personel, destroying 1/3 of machinery and taking the ship down to 12kts temporarily.

However, the concentrated fire of Warspite and Valiant , and QE before the main con tower hit, would produce 4 successive hits on Littorio, one in the aft turret (again), destroying it, and 2 on the superstructures (one through the main tower, cutting it in 2, and killing alot of personel), and one through the crane. All communication between Iachino and rest of the ship, and between Littorio and Roma/Veneto would be cut. Speed of Littorio would drop to 18kts - ship on fire for a good portion.

11 minutes into the battle. 70 x 15" shells fired by the British , with 5 more hits. 55 x 15" shells fired by the Italians, with 3 hits.

With Littorio badly damaged and only firing sporadically, at 22km (elapsed time 11 minutes), Sommerville would order all guns to fire on the second Italian battleship in the column - Roma. At the time, the British would have 22 guns available, 6 of which still not available (until switch of command to aft portion of QE). So 16 guns, firing at Roma. The Italians would reply forcefully with 18 guns. Soon , Valiant would receive another devastating hit in the machinery space, leaving a single generator online and letting flood water enter the ship heavily. The ship would move by inertia alone, but still firing well. Warspite would deliver 1 hit on Roma's second forward turret, with the shell not perforating, and not exploding but remaining trapped between the 2 barbettes.

Veneto would hit QE 2 times, with 1 shell directly in the aft 4" magazines, but the shell would be inert and not exploding [at that range and diagonal approach, it would be very unlikely for a functional shell to reach the cartridge magazines]. As a precaution, the aft magazines (main and secondary) would be flooded.

Warspite would continue firing, on Roma. With her radar online, and 8 guns firing, the 4th 4-gun salvo would hit , perforating the upper deck near the main control tower, and exploding underneath it, cutting communication everywhere in the ship.
Warspite would obtain another hit , on Roma's aft section, causing flooding, speed reduction and a small fire.

Veneto would obtain another hit on Valiant, destroying one aft main turret. Valiant, now stopped, dead in the water, and with a 10* list, would continue to draw fire.

Warspite would produce another damaging salvo, with splinters raining down on Roma and destroying all aerials and radars, cutting communication to Veneto.

[13 minutes into the action. 60 more shells fired by the British with 4 hits, and 40 fired by the Italians with 4 hits.]

At 21km, Warspite with 8 guns but no radar, QE with 2 guns and radar, and VAliant with 6 guns but ineffective, would respond to 12 Italian heavy guns.

Howver, good training and preparation, and turret design, would ensure the BRitish firing 20 x 15" rounds per minute, versus Italians 15 x 15" rounds per minute. 4 more shells would hit Roma in rapid succession, destroyuing the forward turrets and con tower, and leaving her to fire from aft turret only, in local control, ineffectively.

Veneto would land 2 shells on the badly hit Valiant, not causing much damage, but flooding the ship with aditional 2000 tons of water. Valiant would have a 15* list, and stop all firing. Water would be building inside and all rescue efforts appear compromised by the lack of electrical power.

Warspite and QE would switch fire to Veneto from 20km. Veneto would switch fire to Warspite at the same time.

Now, with 10 guns versus 9, the British would attempt to cripple Veneto. Target aquisition would be in favor of Veneto, with a time of flight of 20 seconds for her main guns. Rapid fire would commence, with 3-gun salvos errupting around Warspite.
The British would require 1 more minute to get correct range, and open rapid fire. By that time, Veneto woudl have fired 12 more shots, with 1 hiting Warspite in the con tower again, killing Somerville and everybody else, and cutting communications to the ship and to QE/Valiant. However, the aft tower woudl resume firing almost at once.

QE would have a hard time hiting Veneto with her 2 guns. Speed would also drop. Warspite would take 2 more hits (forecastle and diving shell amidships, exploding against the main internal bulkhead and causing local flooding) before hiting Veneto with 1 shell, through the upper deck and into one of the generator rooms. Some electrical power lost by Veneto.
Rapid fire would be waged - 20 British rpm vs 12 Italian rpm. In 3 minutes, the battle would be over - Veneto hit 6 times (aft engine room , con tower + radars, aft turret, Pugliese system hit by diving shell and causing flooding, funel, forecastle, fires), Warspite 3 times (with forward turrets destroyed, and forecastle flooded).

At 18km, the battle would be 6 vs 6 in terms of main guns and 12 vs 8 in terms of rounds per minute. 3 more hits on Veneto (1 fw main turret, 2 in the machinery spaces, total 6000 tons of water inside, speed 6kts), and 2 more on Warspite (magazine explosion).
Still, QE would have a good range and hit Veneto again, destroying both funells and leaving the ship dead in the water, firing sporadically, same as Roma and Littorio.

QE would lay a smoke screen, and move at 12kts to provide help to Valiant, listing at 20*. QE would ensure some electrical power and pumps, and in 30 minutes, Valiant would be back to 10* and "only" 5000 tons of water inside, with 1 electrical plant working and producing power for 2 main turrets. The ship would move slowly, under tow, at 5kts.

SO the battle ends - all 3 Italian BBs badly damaged (1.5-2 years repairs), Warspite sunk, Valiant crippled (1 year repairs), QE badly damaged (1 year repairs).

.....

[paul.mercer]

Ciao Alberto,

I've been thinking about this possible battle.... Somewhere mid-1943, perfect clear day, in the Mediteranean. Both forces have info on the enemy location, some 50km distant. Say Sommerville and Iachino in command... I would expect Somerville to lay in wait, knowing that the Italians have spotted him, and closing with a delta of at least 10km/h (2 hours until gun range).
The British - Warspite (flagship), Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, would cruise in line abreast, perpendicular to the expected Italian attack course... (as relayed by the spotter plane).
The Italians - Littorio (flag), Vittorio Veneto and ROma, would charge at 28kts, in the direction identified by own spotter plane. First sighting could be done from ~ 35km and enemy disposition and course at the time could be well observed from 30km. The Italian battleships would already have projectiles loaded to be fired, and guns raised for 30km range. First salvos, (ranging salvos), would be fired by each Italian battlesihp at timely intervals of some 20 seconds, to avoid confusion over incorrect ranging of other ships salvos.

The British would not be able to reply effectively, but would fire anyway as per doctrine to not let the enemy un-answered. So first salvos of 4-guns each would be fired from 29km or so.

The Italians would alter course to a diagonal, in order to bring their aft guns to bear (but giving a longer approach time). Some heavy salvos would be exchanged in the first 8 mnutes, with British shells continuing to fire 4- gun salvos, guided by radars, straddling and hiting the lead ship - Littorio, 4 times in 8 minutes (1 on a forward main turret - damaged, 1 in the forecastle - speed reduced to 25kts, 1 through the second funnell - speed further reduced to 23kts temporarily, 1 in the main armor belt - projectile broken). Iachino would order Veneto and Roma to match speed with Littorio...

The Italians would fire vigorously as well, 3 x 3-gun salvos from each ship, initialy aimed at Warspite, and then engaging each British battleship. The extreme speed of the 15"/L50 gun would give 2 big advantages and 1 big disadvantage: the big advantage would be the low time of flight of shells towards targets. This assures faster target aquisition , as the Italian guns had about 40 seconds time of flight at 30km , versus 65 seconds for British gun. So faster obtaining of water columns and thus ranging. The second advantage would be hiting space, larger then for British gun. The disadvantage would be projectile dispersion - of around 600m for 3-gun salvos at 30km, narrowing down to 400m at 20km.

Thus, Warspite would probably be hit early on, by 2 shells - 1 through the con tower (but NOT the bridge), destroying the radars and killing several of the crew, the second through the aft part, damaging the stearing and one of the screws shafts.
Later, Queen Elizabeth would receive one hit in the forward main barbette, badly damaging it and the surrounding armor deck plating, and leaving the turret fixed at the given orientation.

With the battle getting down to 24km (continuing the diagonal approach), and 8 minutes elapsed time from the first salvo fired by Littorio, the British would hit Littorio 3 times successively, knocking out the aft command tower, 2 secondary turrets and damaging one of the power generators. In return, Valiant would receive one hit amidships, through the 200mm portion of the belt, going to the lower part of the funells , cutting one of the main smoke pipes, and hiting the opposite armored belt, exploding in contact with it and rupturing a hole in the hull. Valiant would drop to 15kts temporarily, but still firing well.

A 3-gun salvo from Queen Elizabeth would straddle Littorio, sending shrappnell and disabling the main radar, as well as further damaging the forecastle. Water would be coming in, and the damge to the one of the generators would not help in keeping it out. Speed would drop to 21kts temporarily.

[so far , 9 minutes and 220 shells with 8 hits fired by the British and 250 by the Italians producing 4 hits]

At 23km, the Italians would continue to fire on all British ships. Warspite would land another hit on Littorio, damaging her aft turret, jammed. Still Iachino would order a courageos turn, and keep Warspite still on track for the aft turret. Roma would hit Queen Elizabeth 2 times, badly damaging the forecastle and main con tower, with everybody on the bridge dead.

VEneto would hit Valiant again - in one of the engine rooms, killing alot of personel, destroying 1/3 of machinery and taking the ship down to 12kts temporarily.

However, the concentrated fire of Warspite and Valiant , and QE before the main con tower hit, would produce 4 successive hits on Littorio, one in the aft turret (again), destroying it, and 2 on the superstructures (one through the main tower, cutting it in 2, and killing alot of personel), and one through the crane. All communication between Iachino and rest of the ship, and between Littorio and Roma/Veneto would be cut. Speed of Littorio would drop to 18kts - ship on fire for a good portion.

11 minutes into the battle. 70 x 15" shells fired by the British , with 5 more hits. 55 x 15" shells fired by the Italians, with 3 hits.

With Littorio badly damaged and only firing sporadically, at 22km (elapsed time 11 minutes), Sommerville would order all guns to fire on the second Italian battleship in the column - Roma. At the time, the British would have 22 guns available, 6 of which still not available (until switch of command to aft portion of QE). So 16 guns, firing at Roma. The Italians would reply forcefully with 18 guns. Soon , Valiant would receive another devastating hit in the machinery space, leaving a single generator online and letting flood water enter the ship heavily. The ship would move by inertia alone, but still firing well. Warspite would deliver 1 hit on Roma's second forward turret, with the shell not perforating, and not exploding but remaining trapped between the 2 barbettes.

Veneto would hit QE 2 times, with 1 shell directly in the aft 4" magazines, but the shell would be inert and not exploding [at that range and diagonal approach, it would be very unlikely for a functional shell to reach the cartridge magazines]. As a precaution, the aft magazines (main and secondary) would be flooded.

Warspite would continue firing, on Roma. With her radar online, and 8 guns firing, the 4th 4-gun salvo would hit , perforating the upper deck near the main control tower, and exploding underneath it, cutting communication everywhere in the ship.
Warspite would obtain another hit , on Roma's aft section, causing flooding, speed reduction and a small fire.

Veneto would obtain another hit on Valiant, destroying one aft main turret. Valiant, now stopped, dead in the water, and with a 10* list, would continue to draw fire.

Warspite would produce another damaging salvo, with splinters raining down on Roma and destroying all aerials and radars, cutting communication to Veneto.

[13 minutes into the action. 60 more shells fired by the British with 4 hits, and 40 fired by the Italians with 4 hits.]

At 21km, Warspite with 8 guns but no radar, QE with 2 guns and radar, and VAliant with 6 guns but ineffective, would respond to 12 Italian heavy guns.

Howver, good training and preparation, and turret design, would ensure the BRitish firing 20 x 15" rounds per minute, versus Italians 15 x 15" rounds per minute. 4 more shells would hit Roma in rapid succession, destroyuing the forward turrets and con tower, and leaving her to fire from aft turret only, in local control, ineffectively.

Veneto would land 2 shells on the badly hit Valiant, not causing much damage, but flooding the ship with aditional 2000 tons of water. Valiant would have a 15* list, and stop all firing. Water would be building inside and all rescue efforts appear compromised by the lack of electrical power.

Warspite and QE would switch fire to Veneto from 20km. Veneto would switch fire to Warspite at the same time.

Now, with 10 guns versus 9, the British would attempt to cripple Veneto. Target aquisition would be in favor of Veneto, with a time of flight of 20 seconds for her main guns. Rapid fire would commence, with 3-gun salvos errupting around Warspite.
The British would require 1 more minute to get correct range, and open rapid fire. By that time, Veneto woudl have fired 12 more shots, with 1 hiting Warspite in the con tower again, killing Somerville and everybody else, and cutting communications to the ship and to QE/Valiant. However, the aft tower woudl resume firing almost at once.

QE would have a hard time hiting Veneto with her 2 guns. Speed would also drop. Warspite would take 2 more hits (forecastle and diving shell amidships, exploding against the main internal bulkhead and causing local flooding) before hiting Veneto with 1 shell, through the upper deck and into one of the generator rooms. Some electrical power lost by Veneto.
Rapid fire would be waged - 20 British rpm vs 12 Italian rpm. In 3 minutes, the battle would be over - Veneto hit 6 times (aft engine room , con tower + radars, aft turret, Pugliese system hit by diving shell and causing flooding, funel, forecastle, fires), Warspite 3 times (with forward turrets destroyed, and forecastle flooded).

At 18km, the battle would be 6 vs 6 in terms of main guns and 12 vs 8 in terms of rounds per minute. 3 more hits on Veneto (1 fw main turret, 2 in the machinery spaces, total 6000 tons of water inside, speed 6kts), and 2 more on Warspite (magazine explosion).
Still, QE would have a good range and hit Veneto again, destroying both funells and leaving the ship dead in the water, firing sporadically, same as Roma and Littorio.

QE would lay a smoke screen, and move at 12kts to provide help to Valiant, listing at 20*. QE would ensure some electrical power and pumps, and in 30 minutes, Valiant would be back to 10* and "only" 5000 tons of water inside, with 1 electrical plant working and producing power for 2 main turrets. The ship would move slowly, under tow, at 5kts.

SO the battle ends - all 3 Italian BBs badly damaged (1.5-2 years repairs), Warspite sunk, Valiant crippled (1 year repairs), QE badly damaged (1 year repairs).

.....

Thanks for an absolutely fascinating scenario, but one question, why would Warspite sink, she took some heavy hits but surely not enough to sink her?

[alecsandros]

Thanks for an absolutely fascinating scenario, but one question, why would Warspite sink, she took some heavy hits but surely not enough to sink her?

Thanks for the kind words,
I remember Bismarck's guns had a 15 to 30% chance of reaching Hood's magazines IF ships on 30 to 0* target angle. THat means from 15% chance of magazine hit, if the shell hits the hull of the ship (not superstructures or turrets). So roughly 6 or 7 hits on the hull (going down to 3 or 4 hits if the ship's perfectly alligned on parallel courses). With the hull representing about 50% of ship volume exposed to fire from 20km or so (with the rest being exposed turrets, con towers, funnels, cranes, etc) , we get 12 to 14 hits producing 1 magazine hit at 30*, and 6 to 8 at 0*...
In the above scenario, Warspite took 8 hits , the 9th being considered a magazine explosion...

[alecsandros]

... The scenario gives 5 hits on Queen Elizabeth and 8 hits on Valiant...
13 hits on Littorio, 8 on Roma, 11 on Veneto....

[paul.mercer]

Thanks for that, now, after that brilliant scenario evaluation, perhaps you would be kind enough to do another featuring 3 KGV's (with all their guns working properly!) against the Italian ships.
I can hardly wait!

[Steve Crandell]

I think the hypothetical barbette hit on QE had the potential of destroying the ship. It might start a serious cordite fire in the lift and likely result in the forward magazine being flooded if not worse.

[alecsandros]

I think the hypothetical barbette hit on QE had the potential of destroying the ship. It might start a serious cordite fire in the lift and likely result in the forward magazine being flooded if not worse.

... Possible at shorter ranges.
In the scenario, it was a hit at 25/24km distant - hard to perforate the barbette (rounded and 255mm thick, attacked at a compounded angle of obliquity of at least 50*)

[RF]

Further tp Paul's suggestion above of three KGV'S versus the Italians, it might also be interesting to see a mix of the two classes - say two QE's plus KGV itself, as a comparison.