May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

[alecsandros]

Alberto,
if by 6:13/14, POW isn't slowed down drastically, then luetjens would stop the pursuit for multiple reasons - torpedo threat making longer pursuit dangerous, own forecastle damage that he would be aware by now, need to get back on the original mission, etc.

However, I think that the more probable scenario is that POW would suffer massive damage by 6:13, causing speed reduction and a range decrease towards Bismarck. Also, if, as you mentioned, Leach would turn again to fight, the range can only decrease, to possibly 8-9km.

[Dave Saxton]

What is the battle range again? It's likely that those handful of hits from Bismarck on POW can do a lot more than degrade its speed and gunnery. POW is in mortal danger here. Bismarck's vitals are not equally exposed.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Alecsandros wrote: "I think that the more probable scenario is that POW would suffer massive damage by 6:13,"

Hi Alec,
BS already lost the target at 6:02 due to PoW unexpected turn away.
On 110° BS would have lost her target for 2 full minutes (as she did from 6:03 till 6:05 due to the turn to avoid torpedoes), thus no hits on PoW from 6:02 till 6:05 at least (we are not sure Schneider could hit PoW again after 2 minutes as in the actual battle BS turned again....). At that point in time, with distance around 15 km, increasing rapidly by almost 0.5 km per minute (ships on 110° and 180° diverging course) , there were not so many salvos available to hit PoW again and do some disabling damage before 6:13.

PoW took 3 hits form BS and 4 from PG at similar or shorter ranges getting only "superficial damage" as per Leach words. Other 3 to 4 more heavy hits IMO would not have been enough to (statistically) inflict disabling damage to a ship that was anyway difficult to be hit due to her own smoke screen and that offered a very small target (her stern).....


A totally different story would have been if Lutjens decided to pursue PoW "till the end", but, at that point in time, a desperate PoW could still turn against the enemy and inflict some (non repairable) damages as well before sinking.....


Bye, Alberto

[Alberto Virtuani]

Dave Saxton wrote: "What is the battle range again? It's likely that those handful of hits from Bismarck on POW can do a lot more than degrade its speed and gunnery.... "

Hi Dave,
it depends on the scenario. In the one proposed by Alec, BS turns to 110° at 6:03 without any fake torpedo alarm, while PoW retreats on 180°. Thus range is around 15 km at 6:05, when BS can get her target again, but it increases rapidly due to the diverging courses.

Also as I said previously, PoW exposes to BS a small target (stern) and she is under smoke screen....

Vitals are exposed, but not the mags, located too deep in the hull to be reached by a shell at any (short) distance and protected from splinters, while the machinery is "hidden" to shells coming directly from behind. Her main armament is just exposed in the Y turret (already jammed and at least temporarily unavailable). BS has her vitals protected but all the other parts (of both PoW and BS) are vulnerable. The key point in this scenario is that PoW is unable to return (heavy) fire due to her retreat course and jammed Y turret.

I do feel however that, under such circumstances, a "pursuit" on course 110° up to just 6:13 (range already increased to 17 or even 18 km) might not be enough to disable PoW (as a matter of fact, Lutjens ordered cease fire at 6:09 with distance around 19 km), while getting BS too dangerously close to Norfolk torpedoes (8 km at 6:13, with a topedo run of just 4 km to BS future position).....


Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

BS already lost the target at 6:02 due to PoW unexpected turn away.

... I am not convinced on the time,
and lack of hits does not mean losing target. Hood was hit on semi-salvo 3, but Bismarck was "on target" from semi-salvo 1.
Not all salvos give hits... And no hits does not mean target lost.

PoW took 3 hits form BS and 4 from PG at similar or shorter ranges getting only "superficial damage" as per Leach words.
Other 3 to 4 more heavy hits IMO would not have been enough to (statistically) inflict disabling damage to a ship that was anyway difficult to be hit due to her own smoke screen and offered a very small target (her stern).....

... Statistically, the 7 hits scored on PoW were scored in about 3 minutes. Giving 6:05 - 6:08 as an alternative time segment, of 3 minutes... Prince of Wales coudl be hit a number of times (maybe 7 more times). Another time segment is 6:08 - 6:13 - 5 minutes of broadsides from Bismarck.
So: 3 minutes firing from Prinz Eugen; 8 minutes firing from Bismarck.
My estimate is that Prince of WAles was to receive at least 11 to 15 hits before 6:13 - some of which would damage her machinery and/or steering...

A totally different story would have been if Lutjens decided to pursue PoW "till the end", but, at that point in time, a desperate PoW could still turn against the enemy and inflict damages as well.....

But historically , PoW did not inflict any sort of damage on the enemy , not in the time frame when Bismarck responded with 380mm gunfire. I do not dismiss the possibility of further 356mm hits, but they would be unlikely to happen, given the historical perspective and situation on board the British battleship.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Alecsandros wrote: "Statistically, the 7 hits scored on PoW were scored in about 3 minutes"

Ciao Alec,
yes but not on a ship retreating under smoke cover and carefully exposing only her stern......

I don't expect many hits on such a target but I can be wrong.....


Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

... But in those 3 minutes, Prince of Wales was not moving in a strait line, but continously following a circle, with the "exit" out of the battle.

Range was varying massively - from probably 15.5km time of first ranging salvo from Bismarck , down to possibly 13km at 6:02/03
It wouldn't be easy to hit a smoke-engulfed target at 14km (or 15km as you say), moving away from you on a slighly divergent course. But it wouldn't be impossible - and if broadside firing was done, for 3 minutes (cruiser) and 8 minutes (battleship), I would expect at least 1 hit/minute obtained by either ship - cumulating into serious damage delivered to PoW, which would be slowed down significantly, and probably lose much of it's electrical power...

[Alberto Virtuani]

@Alec:

you wrote: "I do not dismiss the possibility of further 356mm hits"

this is of course applying only to the scenario of a pursuit to death and the desperate decision to turn against the enemy (as Y turret was unavailable in retreat), but this would force BS to follow PoW in the wake using only 4 guns.....

you wrote: "But in those 3 minutes, Prince of Wales was not moving in a strait line, but continously following a circle, with the "exit" out of the battle. "

PoW received 2 hits from BS from 6:00:50 till 6:02, when she resumed a straight course 280° (the entry angles as reported in the damage report are always 45°) except the underwater (at 6:02) when the ship had started the turn away (and this shell resulted clearly short.....).

you wrote: ".....I would expect at least 1 hit/minute obtained by either ship....."

You can be right, but I think BS and PG can achieve neither such a high "broadside" RoF (due to increasing range, I expect Schneider and Jasper would have continued their previous firing methodology, thus ranging salvos and then semi-salvos, spotting fall of shots, not really a "rapid fire" with BS achieving 1 rpmpg and PG 1.6 rpmpg) nor such a high hit rate (against a ship enveloped of smoke and exposing a very small target).

I would estimate not more than 2 to 3 heavy hits from BS and a couple from PG (that can anyway make damages of course), not enough to disable PoW ......

IMHO the best choice to finish PoW was to follow her in her wake for a long stern chase (28 knots BS and 26 PoW max according to Lutjens and Leach reports) with only 4 guns for both BS and PG), but in this case, at a certain point in time, PoW could turn against her opponent(s) instead of being a silent target while Norfolk and Suffolk could at last join.....


Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

this is of course applying only to the scenario of a pursuit to death and the desperate decision to turn against the enemy (as Y turret was unavailable in retreat), but this would force BS to follow PoW in the wake using only 4 guns.....

I don't think Luetjens would adopt a perfect stern chase, masking his 4 aft guns. He would be more likely to adopt a diagonal course, in order to unmask his aft batteries.

Luetjens knew Bismarck was hit in the forcastle - but he did not know how badly. Thus I doubt he would adopt a stern battle, which would imply a long battle for endurance.

PoW received 2 hits from BS from 6:00:50 till 6:02, when she resumed a straight course 280° (the entry angles as reported in the damage report are always 45°) except the underwater (at 6:02) when the ship had started the turn away (and this shell resulted clearly short.....).

... It is nothing definitive, Alberto. The timing of the 3rd hit is not definitive, the number of hits of 380mm is not definitive (remember the official damage report says 4 x 380mm shell hits), and the conclusion that Bismarck lost target is wrong. We can not know how BIsmarck was firing - and the reports are not clear enough to deduce how many straddles were obtained after the last 380mm hit scored. Again, Hood was hit on semisalvo3, but Bismarck was on target from semisalvo1. The underwater shell that hit PoW does not prove that Bismarck was "firing" short. We do not know where the other 3 (or 7) shells from that salvo landed. Maybe the others straddled Prince of Wales. We do not know.

You can be right, but I think BS and PG can achieve neither such a high "broadside" RoF (due to increasing range, I expect Schneider and Jasper would have continued their previous firing methodology, thus ranging salvos and then semi-salvos, spotting fall of shots, not really a "rapid fire" with BS achieving 1 rpmpg and PG 1.6 rpmpg) nor such a high hit rate (against a ship enveloped of smoke and exposing a very small target).

It is not such a small target. Not perfect, but not very small either.
With Bismarck at 110* and PoW at 135* (as historical and going towards NOrfolk), Bismarck has about half the length of PoW to hit. If PoW woudl steady on course 180*, Bismarck could turn back to course 230* or so , and Norfolk would not get into the action before 6:15...

I would expect around 100-110 x 380mm shells fired* by Bismarck (6:04/6:05 to 6:13/6:14) and 45-55 x 203mm shells fired by Prinz Eugen, with some 300 x 150 and 105mm shells fired in the same time frame.

*EDIT: shots ordered... not actualy consumed... or about 11-12 shots/minute for the entire 380mm batteries, considering continous straight course at 110* for 9 (or 10) minutes.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hi Alec,
I agree it's not correct to say that target was lost after 6:02. However no more hits were scored after 3 hits in almost 1 minute.

you wrote: "... It is nothing definitive, Alberto. The timing of the 3rd hit is not definitive, the number of hits of 380mm is not definitive (remember the official damage report says 4 x 380mm shell hits)"

Using the reconstruction and info we have gathered in the past years, hit timing is almost definitive )lacking an alternative theory).

The damage report is very detailed and course of PoW is easily calculated from the entry angle of shots. Hit 1 (compass) and 3 (crane) were received with the ship on 280°, thus from 6:00:50 (hit 1 whose timing is 100% defined as we have the PG film frames showing it and just after salvo 16 fired by PoW) till 6:01:30 (hit 3, that Hunter-Terry said happened with the ship already heeling to port due to the retreat turn, starting its effect at 6:01:30 as per PoW map) the ship resumed a course 280°. The third hit arrived just slightly after with the ship already turning (10° to 20°max) but for sure not after 6:02:00 as after this time PoW was already presenting the stern to BS......
The only debatable hit (acording to the short version of the damage report is the hit 2 (fore directors support) that was wrongly attributed to a 15" but in the detail report is mentioned (more realistically) as a 8" (or even a 6"). In any case this happened at the same time as the compass one, so 6:00:50. No hits from BS after 6:02.

you wrote_: "With Bismarck at 110* and PoW at 135* (as historical and going towards NOrfolk)...."

I just reasoned based on your proposed scenario, with BS turning to 110° course. In this case PoW retreat would have continued to 170 or 180° as initially.
PoW turned to 135° only after 6:06 when BS had already turned away for a while..... In case of no torp alarm, and BS turning to 110°, PoW would never turn to 135°, if she wanted to retreat.


Ciao, Alberto

[alecsandros]

Hi Alec,
I agree it's not correct to say that target was lost after 6:02. However no more hits were scored after 3 hits in almost 1 minute.

Maybe, but we do not know what happened.
If we look at the battle with Hood, no hits were scored between 5:57 and 6:00, right ? But BIsmarck was on target... just did not hit anymore..

The only debatable hit (acording to the short version of the damage report is the hit 2 (fore directors support) that was wrongly attributed to a 15" but in the detail report is mentioned (more realistically) as a 8" (or even a 6"). In any case this happened at the same time as the compass one, so 6:00:50. No hits from BS after 6:02.

This is entirely based on analysis of entry angles.... It's an interesting method, but we in fact do not know the actual courses of the 2 ships (BS and PoW) in such detail so as to draw angles along their trajectories.
Some survivor reports (and some maps) depict Bismarck making slight course alterations (10* ?) starting 5:55, along the base course 220*. IF that is so , then the angles of impact onto Prince of Wales correspond to different moments in time.
Speaking of entry angles, the angle between the entry and exit of the first shot , which went through the compass platform, is around 30*... Allthoug angle of fall is no larger then 15* maximum... Could Prince of Wales be heeling so much ? Or was the range greater then we think ? Or something else ?
In any case, the argument is that entry angles alone can not explain everything...

PoW turned to 135° only after 6:06 when BS had already turned away for a while..... In case of no torp alarm, and BS turning to 110°, PoW would never turn to 135°, if she wanted to retreat.

... But you mentioned NOrfolk.
In order for PoW to come under "protection" of NOrfolk, she must be stearing east... Around 135*.
If not, and if going at 180* at 26kts, or 27kts, tehre is no reason for Bismrack to turn at 110*, she must keep 230-240* and fire with all artillery.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Alecsandros wrote: " Some survivor reports (and some maps) depict Bismarck making slight course alterations (10* ?) starting 5:55, along the base course 220*. IF that is so , then the angles of impact onto Prince of Wales correspond to different moments in time. "

Hi Alec, sorry but I'm afraid I don't understand at all your sentence.

The course of BS wouldn't have affected at all her shells entry angles into PoW. The entry angle of hit 1,(2 from PG) and 3 was 45° from PoW bow, as per the damage report, so no way to change the course of PoW based on BS possible slight turns. The underwater hit and the position of the shell in the ship shows that it could only impact PoW with an angle between 55°and 65° from her bow..... again the course of Bismarck is totally irrelevant.
However I don't think BS could obtain so many hits turning from a 220° absolutely stable course.

Could you please explain what you mean ?

you wrote: "Speaking of entry angles, the angle between the entry and exit of the first shot , which went through the compass platform, is around 30*... Allthoug angle of fall is no larger then 15* maximum... Could Prince of Wales be heeling so much ? "

according to Norfolk witnesses, PoW was heeling so much, due to turn and counter-turn to avoid Hood remains, that they though she was almost capsizing.

you wrote: "....If not, and if going at 180* at 26kts, or 27kts, there is no reason for Bismarck to turn at 110*, she must keep 230-240* and fire with all artillery."

I fully agree ! It was you who proposed the theory of BS turning to 110° and I only developed your scenario based on it......
I think PoW (trying to escape and without torp alarm changing BS course) would have kept a 160°/ 170°course. BS could keep 220° (or turn to 230°/240°as you propose here), but in this situation, from 6:02 till 6:03, BS scored no hit at all anyway, while she was scoring 3 hits in the previous minute, when PoW was on a stable course........
Range would have increased anyway by more than 1 km per minute on these last proposed courses.
Thus, no time enough IMHO to score disabling hits on the retreating battleship showing her (small target) tail to Germans and covered by a smoke screen.....


I do think the only way to be sure to finish PoW would have been for BS to start a long stern chase on same course 160°, with only 4 guns bearing against none, but, as you correctly said, Lutjens may have been informed soon of the forecastle damage (and of the need to slow down his own flagship to avoid risks to the fore bulkheads due to water pressure), with Norfolk possibly coming (slowly this time) close to him and with the risk to be dragged into a trap, under Tovey guns, if the latter was just behind the horizon.......


Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

However I don't think BS could obtain so many hits turning from a 220° absolutely stable course.

3 or 4 hits from 40 shots fired at 14km is not that much at all...

Could you please explain what you mean ?

I mean you can obtain the same angle if you put Bismarck in another place - ever forward (i.e. later in time), while PoW is turning.

according to Norfolk witnesses, PoW was heeling so much, due to turn and counter-turn to avoid Hood remains, that they though she was almost capsizing.

Some say the ship would capsize or be in danger of it at 15* or so...

when PoW was on a stable course........

PoW was not on a stable course, but continously moving in a round trajectory.

Range would have increased anyway by more than 1 km per minute on these last proposed courses.

No, it would't.
BS at 240* and 28kts, PoW at 180* and 27kts would give a very small delta speed - if at all.

[Alberto Virtuani]

Alecsandros wrote: "I mean you can obtain the same angle if you put Bismarck in another place - ever forward (i.e. later in time)

Hi Alec,
sorry, but I still don't see how moving BS can affect her shells entry angle into PoW..... it would affect only the BS gun bearing at that time.

you wrote: "PoW was not on a stable course, but continuously moving in a round trajectory."

She was on a stable course and not moving in a round trajectory until 6:01:30. Just heeling violently due to the rudder put to starboard and then to port to avoid Hood, that did not affect much her course (aft guns were always bearing and gunnery map does not show any change of course). This is confirmed by hit 1 and 3 coming from the same direction in 40 seconds timeframe.
Why do you say she was moving in a round trajectory ?

you wrote:

Alberto Virtuani wrote: "Range would have increased anyway by more than 1 km per minute on these last proposed courses. "

"No, it would't. BS at 240* and 28kts, PoW at 180* and 27kts would give a very small delta speed - if at all."

With BS on 240°I would have steered PoW to 160° (or even 150°) to try to escape, as actually per PoW initial disengagement course from 6:03 till 6:04, but, even with a 180° PoW course, the range would increase by 0,85 km per minute (60° divergent course) instead of 1 km per minute (with a 90° divergent courses). Still a quick range increase and few minutes to hit a small target covered by smoke screen.


I repeat, IMO the only way to ensure PoW final disablement was to start a long stern chase, had BS not sustained the bow hit and had Lutjens accepted the risk of having Norfolk getting closer (dispatching PG he could possibly avoid that, but he would have 4 8" guns less to pound PoW) and, possibly, of being dragged against the other ships of the Home Fleet.


Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

sorry, but I still don't see how moving BS can affect her shells entry angle into PoW..... it would affect only the BS gun bearing at that time.

PoW was in different points in different times, same as Bismarck. The same entry angles can be obtained for different positions of the 2 ships, in different moments in time.

She was on a stable course and not moving in a round trajectory until 6:01:30. Just heeling violently due to the rudder put to starboard and then to port to avoid Hood, that did not affect much her course (aft guns were always bearing and gunnery map does not show any change of course).

Rudder to starboard, then hard to port does not mean steady course

With BS on 240°I would have steered PoW to 160° (or even 150°) to try to escape, as actually per PoW initial disengagement course from 6:03 till 6:04, but, even with a 180° PoW course, the range would increase by 0,85 km per minute (60° divergent course) instead of 1 km per minute (with a 90° divergent courses). Still a quick range increase and few minutes to hit a small target covered by smoke screen.

If Luetjens would decide to pursue, he would match Prince of Wales heading - that would be the logical thing to do. He would do that while keeping most of his artillery bearing on the enemy - again , only logical. So if PoW would settle on a course, Bismarck would settle on another course, which would allow all artillery to fire. The calculation of 0.85km per minute is not correct.
You must plot the speed vectors onto a carthesian coordonate system and observe what is the delta speed in the direction of movement that you are interested in. The delta would be far slower - no more then 100-200m/minute , IMHO (but I should take a pen and paper to draw the vectors and I'm to lazy for that .... )