May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

... Steve, Prince of Wales was to the S-E of Bismarck at 6:03. Norfolk was to the N-E. In order for PoW to move to Norfolk, she would have to pass parallel to Bismarck and offer entire length (226meters) as target for German batteries, instead of offering a narrow 30meters beam.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi all,
just to recap: at 6:03 Norfolk was perfectly East from Bismarck (absolute bearing 90°) at around 24 km distance from her. PoW was South-East (bearing around 150°), 14 km far from BS and already retreating toward South. It was Suffolk that was 26 km from Bismarck to North-North East (bearing 30°), basically following Bismarck.

As Steve said, Norfolk would have been in action almost immediately (and you all know that I do think she could have been in action already, being in extreme gun range since 6:00..... :wink: ), had Bismarck changed her 220° course in order to follow PoW (at 6:03 without the torpedo alarm). In addition, the British cruiser was in a very favorable position for a torpedo attack against the German flagship turning to South-East.

Having to change course, BS would not have found immediately her target, thus allowing Norfolk to get very close to her and Lutjens would have been obliged to send PG against Norfolk before he could maneuver Bismarck.


As a final consideration, Marshall was removed for risking his ships when in command, I don't think even Marshall (if not removed but just reprimanded) would have turned against PoW, having the door to the Atlantic wide open after 6:03.


Bye, Alberto
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

@Alberto

What do you mean by "immediately" ?

And why do you think fire form the cruiser would be effective , so as to determine Luetjens to move part of his gunfire there ?
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by RF »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Re. your last question: had BS turned to avoid "torpedo" at 5:59, I guess Hood would not have blown up at 6:00, all battle geometry would have been scrambled and ..... who knows......
However, even with a German turn at 5:59 (back on 220° only at 6:02) and with Holland therefore able to reach a 15 km distance on almost parallel courses for a broadside duel, I would not put much money on Hood survival, as she was not immune to 15" shells and she could have blown up (just later) in any case.
What is being lost here is not so much the timing of Hood's demise but the fact that Hood was firing on the wrong ship. From the very start, when Hoods' fire was accurate, this changed the dynamics of the battle.
The longer Hood lasts, even with its gunnery degraded, if Hood had opened fire on Bismarck then Bismarck is under major risk. A couple of heavy hits from Hood at the start could have changed the whole course of the action, maybe preventing Hood from blowing up at all. The longer Hood lasts, the more time POW has for free target practice....
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

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Alberto Virtuani wrote: As a final consideration, Marshall was removed for risking his ships when in command, I don't think even Marshall (if not removed but just reprimanded) would have turned against PoW, having the door to the Atlantic wide open after 6:03.
Bye, Alberto
Remembering that the Germans had misidentified POW as the KGV Marschall might have decided to sink his opposite number (Tovey) and complete elimination of two ships that can match Bismarck for speed - such a victory on that scale would not only be a prestigious victory for the Third Reich but would make the North Atlantic even more open for Rheiubung to be executed.... even if it is POW and not KGV.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Alecsandros wrote: "What do you mean by "immediately" ?"
HI Alec,
being Norfolk already at 24 km from enemy (bearing 90°) at 6:03, had BS turned to port to any course different from 220° to follow PoW, the distance could close very quickly (e.g. with BS on 110° course, as you proposed to keep 8 guns bearing, Norfolk would be at 17 km on course 230°/240° in just 5 minutes, thus well within effective gun range and already able to fire torpedoes at long range, with less than 10 minutes run against the future position of BS; within other 5 minutes the distance would have been 8 km with a torpedo run of less than 4 km to the BS future point..... and so on).

RF wrote: "A couple of heavy hits from Hood at the start could have changed the whole course of the action, maybe preventing Hood from blowing up at all. The longer Hood lasts, the more time POW has for free target practice...."
Hi RF,
yes true, however the longer the battle lasts, even with Hood firing at BS, the higher probability of a fatal hit on Hood that had no immunity at all, except if BS gunnery can be radically impaired by the concentrated fire of the British ships.
Historically, however, Hood was unable to hit the wrong target (PG) in 8 minutes battle, why should she have been able to hit BS instead ? :think:
Even In the best case for British, my guess is that Hood would have blown up (or sunk) anyway (perhaps later) while BS could have been heavily damaged and then possibly finished by the almost (just 8" and 6") undisturbed PoW.

The protection weakness and the obsolete fire control of Hood compared to a modern battleship was IMO the key reason for her loss, disregarding the "unlucky" hit and the wrong target.... but who knows ?....

you wrote: ".....such a victory on that scale would not only be a prestigious victory for the Third Reich but would make the North Atlantic even more open for Rheiubung to be executed......"
Well, as I said, I think that, in order to finish PoW (or KGV...), Lutjens (or Marshall....) should have taken too many risks of damaging hits from the British battleship and of hits/torpedoes from the heavy cruisers. A damaged BS could not anyway continue her mission and would have been an easy prey for the other coming HF ships (KGV (or PoW), Repulse and mostly Victorious).
Had BS tried to finish PoW, the risk was to be further slowed and sunk by the remaining units of the HF, thus cancelling Rheinubung at all.......

Continuing on 220° course was IMO the best choice to reach open Atlantic and to try to continue the mission. It could have been possible in case PoW hits were not so severe, as I think Lutjens still hoped at 6:03.....


Bye, Alberto
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
being Norfolk already at 24 km from enemy (bearing 90°) at 6:03, had BS turned to port to any course different from 220° to follow PoW, the distance could close very quickly (e.g. with BS on 110° course, as you proposed to keep 8 guns bearing, Norfolk would be at 17 km on course 230°/240° in 5 minutes, thus well within effective gun range and already able to fire torpedoes at extreme range, with less than 10 minutes run against the future position of BS; within other 5 minutes the distance would have been 8 km with a torpedo run of less than 4 km to the BS future point..... and so on).
Aaaa, I see it now.
6:03 + 5 minutes would be around 6:08. My take is that by 6:08 Prince of Wales would have received several more hits (probably 3-4 x 380mm hits and 5-6 x 203mm hits), losing more men and possibly some speed and armament. My take is also that, based on the performance of gunnery of HMS Suffolk*, Norfolk would need some time to develop endangering fire, and the decision to take Prinz Eugen to fire against her would have been taken later on (6:10 - 6:11).
With the torpedoes in the water at 6:10, and detonation time at 6:20 or around it, the Bismarkc would have 10 full minutes to fire broadsides on Prince of Wales (6:08 - 6:18), before disengaging for fear of torpedoes. After the torpedoes would have passed, the battleship would resume pounding the helpless Prince of Wales. Norfolk would seize to be a threat to Bismarck by 6:12 - 6:13, when Prinz Eugen's salvos would start becoming effective and the battle would transform into a cruiser battle, with the 8 x 203mm guns of Norfolk no longer targeting Bismarck (but could potentialy cause damage to Prinz Eugen instead).


*Suffolk was at 18km from Bismarck and did not obtained any meaningfull results from what I know (I'm refering to the second battle of the day, around 18:00). She did fire several broadsides on Bismarck , BIsmarck replied and the cruiser went immediately behind a smoke screen and withdrew. Prince of Wales then opened fire to cover her from 30km, and Bismarck replied. Etc.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Alecsandros wrote: ".... by 6:08 Prince of Wales would have received several more hits (probably 3-4 x 380mm hits and 5-6 x 203mm hits), losing more men and possibly some speed and armament."
Hi Alec,
we are in a fully hypothetical scenario here, but having to turn 90° to port, Bismarck (that already had lost her target after 6:02 (last hit on PoW), could not get back on target before 6:04, so 3 to 4 hits are possible, but here it depends on what PoW does, if she turns back to be able to use her fore guns, damages to her armament are possible, if she keeps retreating, then just the aft turret (already jammed) can be probably damaged. In addition if PoW keeps on retreating at max speed, the distance (with BS on 110° course and a bit slowed by the turn) will start increasing, especially if BS had to maneuver to avoid torpedoes......

If Leach decides instead to turn back and fight to death, then the space for BS to maneuver under PoW fire is further reduced and Norfolk torpedoes can become deadly dangerous already by 6:08.
you wrote: "....With the torpedoes in the water at 6:10, and detonation time at 6:20 or around it,.... "
Torps launched at 6:08 (17 km) would have a run of 8 minutes (being on almost opposite course to reach the future point of BS, combined speed of 60+ knots). Torps launched at 6:10 (distance 13 km) would have a run of just 6 minutes and so on.....

I don't think any admiral would ever go against a well positioned cruiser for a torpedo attack without taking care of disabling it before......


Bye, Alberto
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
we are in a fully hypothetical scenario here, but having to turn 90° to port, Bismarck (that already had lost her target after 6:02 (last hit on PoW), could not get back on target before 6:04, so 3 to 4 hits are possible, but here it depends on what PoW does, if she turns back to be able to use her fore guns, damages to her armament are possible, if she keeps retreating, then just the aft turret (already jammed) can be probably damaged.
I don't know if the last hit on PoW was at 6:02, most timings I've seeen are around 6:03.
A Bismarck turn to 110* would take some 60 seconds, so until 6:04/6:05, after which the broadsides would continue. Delta speed between BS/Prince of Wales would be around zero, as historically Prince of Wales was doing a course change herself (completed around 6:05/6:06). With Prince of WAles coned from the aft command position (completel vulnerable to 105m, 150, 203, 380mm shells), and range around 13-14km (constant), and with heavy smoke shrouding the battleship, and with 5 guns out of order and all secondary artillery without functional directors, no functional radars ... I would say in that time segment PRince of Wales woudl be badly hit by Bismarck - allthough 1 or 2 extra 356mm hits may be possible - and PRinz Eugen.

Norfolk's perfect timing at 6:08 and torp launch, would still imply torps running time of 8 minutes as you say, so 6:16 time of impact, so 6:14 time to transform Prince of wales into a large pile of smoking metal. After the torps passed, with PRince of WAles still a pile of smoking metal, BS and PE would finish her off...

If Leach decides instead to turn back and fight to death, then the space for BS to maneuver under PoW fire is further reduced and Norfolk torpedoes can become deadly dangerous already by 6:08.
Yes, but LEach was in shock, command was in aft con (later switched to forward), and situation of the ship was pretty desperate at the time. And he already made the decision to exit the battle... A turn to fight the Bismarck would mean another minute or so, turning his entire ship lenght to figtht the enemy... And a time segment in which he could be nicely plastered by 4 different calibers of shells...
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

Suffolk would not be in 18km range until 6:15 or so. Possibly PRinz Eugen would divide fire 4 guns on Norfolk, 4 on Suffolk, as Bismarck would close in at 6km from Prince of WAles and devastate her with 380mm gun barrage, by 6:25 or so.

Then, BS would drive off NOrfolk and Suffolk, which would escape under smoke. PRinz Eugen would be damaged - sevearal 203mm hits - and with some speed reduced from near misses and possibly waterline hits.

Then, Luetjens (if he was sane at all) would take the decision to return through the DEnmark Strait.

This would cause the following probable chain of events:
6:30 - BS with PE , 20kts (speed reduced to conduct emergency repairs on the 2 ships) move to course 00*. Suffolk keeps watch from 25km east. Norfolk goes to assist Prince of Wales.
7:00 - surprise, surprise, the 6 destroyers dettached to find the Germans enter visual range of Bismarck. The 2 forces battle each other with guns for about 20 minutes - 2 DDs are lightly damaged. Suffolk enters gun range and fires sporaddicaly as well. Prinz Eugen is hit again.

8:00 - The destroyers have launched all their torps but with no hits. One of them is badly damaged. The other 5 are between BS and Suffolk, under smoke screens. The heavy manouvres made by BS and PE made them lose speed and caused heavy damage to the already damaged hulls.

9:00 - the chase continues, Tovey is rushing to the west with Victorious, KGV, Renown, several CLs and DDs. Range to Bismarck around 450km.

10:00 - Norfolk picks up the last survivor from Prince of Wales, which is scuttled. Norfolk proceeds to Britain.

12:00 - BS and PE enter the Denmark Strait. Victorious launches 9 Swordfish from range 280km. The planes do not find anything because of heavy fog.
14:00 - BS and PE explode over mines. Both are damaged. Suffolk keeps watch.
16:00 - KGV/Renown enter Denmark Strait from the south at 28kts.
18:00 - BS/PE are doign 15kts through the fog. PE's GHG is damaged, so are all the onboard radars.
22:00 - Suffolk goes a bit to close and is taken under gunfire by both German ships. The cruiser is hit and loses her vital surface-search radar.
23:00 - BS/PE at 20kts free of pursuers exit the northern part of the strait as night envelops them. KGV / REnown are coming hard, only 100km behind them.

03:00 - in complete blackness , KGV and Renown narrowly miss the German ships, passing at 20km east of them.
06:00 - BS/PE mantain course north. Victorious search planes are searching east and north-east of the strait. Prinz Eugen is having engine and rudder trouble.
10:00 - German ships rendez-vous with one supply ship, but there is no time to transfer fuel or ammo or repair parts on board. Only information are exchanged - Luetjens transfers copies of the ship's logs and proceeds further north at 20kts.

18:00 - German ships arive south of Jan Mayen island. Situation on board PRinz Eugen is bad - many killed or wounded, ship damaged, one turbine shut down , max sustainable speed 16kts.

Both ships steer course to Norway at 15kts.

Due to the low speed, fuel consumption is not an issue, and both ships make it to Tromso 30 hours later.

The end.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Alecsndros wrote: "most timings I've seeen are around 6:03. "
Hi Alec,
according to the PoW damage report, the last hit (6:03) was from PG. Last hit from BS, the underwater one, based on its entry angle and shell position in the ship, happened when PoW was turning (not yet fully from behind) and still on starboard side, thus around 6:02.

you wrote: " Delta speed between BS/Prince of Wales would be around zero"
With BS on 110° and PoW heading 170°/ 180° (as she historically did) the distance would have increased quite quickly. By 6:14 it would be 16 / 17 km already (with range changing very quickly, smoke in the air from PoW and firing solution/spotting quite difficult for BS.

you wrote: "....With Prince of Wales coned from the aft command position ....command was in aft con (later switched to forward)......
What is your source here ?
AFAIK, PoW was always coned from fore position. Just it was from the fore armored position after the compass platform hit, as per Leach report. He never transferred the con to the aft position. Just the guns direction was transferred to aft as per McMullen decision when smoke obscured his director.

you wrote: "A turn to fight the Bismarck would mean another minute or so, turning his entire ship length to fight the enemy... And a time segment in which he could be nicely plastered by 4 different calibers of shells..."
It could be as you say, but seeing that the enemy was determined to finish PoW, I think Leach could have decided to at least fire his fore guns and try to damage BS before sinking.... :think: Who knows ? Turning 180° against Bismarck would have made the firing solution of BS and PG a bit more difficult as well......

you wrote: "...Bismarck would close in at 6km from Prince of Wales and devastate her with 380mm gun barrage, by 6:25 or so...."
While I like very much the return scenario and find it fairly realistic (even if I think Tovey would have waited for Bismarck at the exit of DS without entering it as it was the shorter way for him, leaving Suffolk and Norfolk to follow Germans within the DS....), I don't know how BS could exit such confrontation to death with PoW.
To close to 6 km means PoW tuns against BS with 5 guns functioning.... BS had just time until Norfolk torps are coming close to fire her 8 guns on a stable course, then due to avoiding maneuvers, she would fire 4 guns only and loose her target while PoW is firing at her..... I expect PoW to be sunk in a battle to death but with difficulty (after 10 to 15 minutes fire) and no less then 15, 20 heavy hits received as her mags were safe, while she could return minimum 8 to 10 heavy hits to BS.

It's hard to say whether BS could still be considered an efficient battleship after that pounding.... :think:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by RF »

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Historically, however, Hood was unable to hit the wrong target (PG) in 8 minutes battle, why should she have been able to hit BS instead ? :think:
BS is a bigger target than PG.

Hood came close to hitting PG, drenching the deck crew with seawater. One shell landed right ahead of PG which if it had been BS instead would have landed right on the bows and forepeak. Other shells fell astern in the immediate wake of PG before the central fire control was knocked out and the remaining shells fell further astern. And that was with only four guns.....
Even In the best case for British, my guess is that Hood would have blown up (or sunk) anyway (perhaps later) while BS could have been heavily damaged and then possibly finished by the almost (just 8" and 6") undisturbed PoW.
Bye, Alberto
I'm not convinced that Hood blowing up was a certainty. I think it was highly likely, but there should have been two mitigating factors - the effect of combined fire from the two RN ships in damaging BS early in the action and the BS being forced to fire on POW as soon as the action is clearly prolonged. Another factor here is that Norfolk was not brought in to fire on the BS starboard quarter right at the start, in itself not particulary vital but a source of further potential damage to BS - remembering that it was Norfolk that apparently scored the direct hit on 27 May on the BS gunnery control position.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

RF wrote: "BS is a bigger target than PG.
Hood came close to hitting PG, drenching the deck crew with seawater. One shell landed right ahead of PG which if it had been BS instead would have landed right on the bows and forepeak. Other shells fell astern in the immediate wake of PG before the central fire control was knocked out and the remaining shells fell further astern. And that was with only four guns....."
Hi RF,
I'm afraid I disagree here: BS was bigger but not so much (250 meters long against 210), not sure, even highly improbable, that any of Hood's shells could have landed on BS, they would have been probably near miss producing at worst slight water income due to broken seals......
Not a single fragment of Hood shells was found on board PG, just some from.... PoW :shock: . So the Hood hits were not so close IMHO (the very bad Hood shooting is the real mistery of the battle of DS....).
In addition PG was closer to Hood than BS and, despite that, Hood was unable to hit her.
According to many witnesses, Hood fired with both fore and aft turrets, at least after 5:54.... Anyway she could possibly have fired 4 guns against BS too......

you wrote: "Another factor here is that Norfolk was not brought in to fire on the BS starboard quarter right at the start, in itself not particulary vital but a source of further potential damage to BS - remembering that it was Norfolk that apparently scored the direct hit on 27 May on the BS gunnery control position."
I do agree with you 100% here ! :clap:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

Alberto Virtuani wrote: you wrote: " Delta speed between BS/Prince of Wales would be around zero"
With BS on 110° and PoW heading 170°/ 180° (as she historically did) the distance would have increased quite quickly. By 6:14 it would be 16 / 17 km already (with range changing very quickly, smoke in the air from PoW and firing solution/spotting quite difficult for BS.
Prince of Wales did not steady on her course until 6:05/6:06 according to all the maps. At 6:03/6:04 (time of a tentative turn done by Bismarck in pursuit) the British battleship was still turning as well. Even considering a loss of speed for Bismarck down to 20kts (!), while Prince of Wales would manouvre at a perfect 27kts, a delta of 7kts per 1 minute (time for Bismarck to settle on new course 110* at 28kts) means the initial range of 13-14km would increase by 200 meters - irrlevenant for gunnery practice.

Just from the fore armored position after the compass platform hit, as per Leach report. He never transferred the con to the aft position. Just the guns direction was transferred to aft as per McMullen decision when smoke obscured his director.
Exactly ! My mistake, I was thinking of gun control... Which was vulnerable to... everything.

you wrote: "...Bismarck would close in at 6km from Prince of Wales and devastate her with 380mm gun barrage, by 6:25 or so...."
To close to 6 km means PoW tuns against BS with 5 guns functioning.... BS had just time until Norfolk torps are coming close to fire her 8 guns on a stable course, then due to avoiding maneuvers, she would fire 4 guns only and loose her target while PoW is firing at her..... I expect PoW to be sunk in a battle to death but with difficulty (after 10 to 15 minutes fire) and no less then 15, 20 heavy hits received, while she could return minimum 8 to 10 heavy hits to BS.

It's hard to say whether BS could still be considered an efficient battleship after that pounding.... :think:


Bye, Alberto[/quote]
... A counter-turn by Prince of Wales could be started at 6:05 and finished at 6:06. SItuation: 5 guns operational, ship under continous enemy fire, no straddle scored by own ship from 5:59 (6-7 minutes earlier). No radar operational. McMullen firing from aft command positoin.

German situation: 16 main guns and 14 secondary guns firing from 13-14km in broadside mode, with radar fire control.

I would expect a number of hits per minute from GErman shells (4-5 hits from all calibers per minute), which would rapidly degrade the already badly degraded gunnery of Prince of Wales ! 6:14/6:15 is a bridge to far for a ship to resist under such a concentrated (and so close !) broadside duel.
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Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Alecsandros wrote: "a delta of 7kts per 1 minute (time for Bismarck to settle on new course 110* at 28kts) means the initial range of 13-14km would increase by 200 meters - irrlevenant for gunnery practice."
Ciao Alec,
yes, but, if PoW continues her retreat, the combined effect of having BS on 110° and PoW on 170° /180° would be a progressive distance increase (around 16 km at 6:13) and a range quickly changing, complicating the firing solutions....
If BS follows PoW on 180°, to keep the distance stable, then only the 4 fore guns would be bearing.....

you wrote: "...No radar operational. McMullen firing from aft command positoin. German situation: 16 main guns and 14 secondary guns firing from 13-14km in broadside mode, with radar fire control..... "
in case PoW turns against BS, McMullen would have the whole turn time to resume central guns control from his fore upper position (that he never left). From that short distance, radar can be a quite irrelevant advantage.
Germans could employ 16 guns only before Norfolk torps are coming close (very soon, with a 110° course), after they have to maneuver wooding turrets and loosing target.
Anyway I do think PG would have been detached against Norfolk beforehand by Lutjens, to try to keep it far from the flagship...... So only BS against PoW......

I'm not so sure PoW could not yet damage BS enough to be caught and sunk later by Tovey, before being disabled by BS.... :think:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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