May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi RF,
of course everything is possible, but Norfolk had torpedoes too (and I'm not sure Germans were aware that Suffolk had recently disembarked her ones....).
After 10 minutes more fire action at that short range, PoW might have become a wreck, but Bismarck too could not be anymore an efficient battleship.
Based on Raeder's orders, I don't think Germans would have accepted fight even with the heavy cruisers, if not to get free of them.
Their mission at that time was against convoys only and the risk to get any kind of damage in Atlantic was too high, disregarding who was in command.

Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

Hard to say,
Probably best case for the Germans would be no fake torpedo alarm, continous broadsides on Prince of Wales with several more hits scored until 6:05/6:06*. Alter course to match PoW (retreating) movements. Continous fire from all 16 guns until 6:10-6:12, and I would expect Prince of Wales to be nearly dead in the water with no operational armament by 6:13 or so. Torpedoes launched from 5km at 6:15, and probably the ship will be sunk by 7:00.

In such a scenario, there is no time for Norfolk/SUffolk (situated 20-24km away from Bismarck at 6:00) to be able to enter effective gun range by 6:10. They could enter gun range after 6:10, and hinder Prinz Eugen's torpedo run, but that would be a slim chance.

*Historically Bismarck scored 3 hits in 3 minutes of firing on Prince of Wales, before the torp alarm was sounded. 2-3 more minutes of uninterrupted firing would possibly bring 2 or 3 more hits. PRinz Eugen could obtain 4 or 5 more hits. This would potentialy reduce Prince of WAles speed even lower then the historically reported 26kts. This would bring the range of the battle ever closer. The historical jam of the aft turret , and the geometry of the retreating ship, woudl give little chances of own gunners to score hits on the pursuers...
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Alec,
correct, but the jam of the aft turrets only happened after the disengage maneuver.
We are here discussing the hypothetical scenario of PoW not disengaging and thus the turret not jamming.

After getting 2 to 3 hits more from BS before 6:03, PoW would have got the opportunity to return hits on Bismarck (that was turning hard to avoid the "torpedoes".....)

Hard to say, but the chances to inflict serious damages to Bismarck were IMHO very high from 6:03 till 6:06 when Bismarck resumed a stable course, at the price of having PoW severely damaged.

The British heavy cruisers were in any case a deterrent for Germans and their presence would have prevented them to maneuver in order to "finish" PoW. Once slowed, PoW would have lost gradually contact with the Germans, being joined by the cruisers. At that point in time, what was the max speed and the ballistic efficiency of Bismarck ?

Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

@Alberto
As I said above, "best case for the Germans - no fake torp alarm [...] PoW (retreating) [...]".
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Alec,
you are right. In your scenario (no torp alarm and PoW retreating, with Y turret jamming), there was no way for PoW to re-engage with a minimum chance to damage BS. This was just possible after Y turret was operational again (around 8 AM, if I remember correctly). At that time, Wake-Walker was in command and the RN heavy cruisers were together with PoW.


However, I think the decision of Lutjens not to follow PoW was correct (at that time and without hindsight....), given his mission orders and based on the fact that behind Hood and PoW there could have been the other Tovey's ships (Lutjens had no info about the position of the rest of the HF and he was just out of an encounter with heavy ships that he would have preferred to avoid......)


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

Well, the historical decision was taken by Luetjens at around 6:05/6:06, when distance between BS and PoW was probably 16km, smoke screen fullly effective and no known speed impairment of the enemy.

With no fake torp alarm... and range 13-14km as it was at 6:03/6:04... Luetjens may have done something else.

---

Anyone thought about what would have happened if the fake alarm was sounded at 5:59 ? :D
OpanaPointer
Senior Member
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by OpanaPointer »

RF wrote:
alecsandros wrote:AFAIK in Aug 1941 , Tirpitz was not operational.
Also Hitler would never have sanctioned any attempt to intercept POW, not even with Churchill on board. The destroyer escorts alone would be a torpedo deterrent......
Thanks. I had my doubts about this author, now I'm just going to close that book and put it back on the shelf.
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Alecsandros wrote: "With no fake torp alarm... and range 13-14km as it was at 6:03/6:04... Luetjens may have done something else.
Anyone thought about what would have happened if the fake alarm was sounded at 5:59 ? "
Hi Alec,
IMHO, even being in a very favorable position and closer to the enemy, Lutjens would not have changed his 220° course, as his mission was to pass and start a raid in the Atlantic (possibly Lindemann would have been even more "furious"....). Lutjens had no clue what was behind the horizon and I think it was correct not to loose time and not to prolong the distance just to finish a defeated enemy. With hindsight, of course, it was the wrong decision: it would have been better for him to finish the PoW and to try to come back to Germany (difficult anyway) as a winner, giving up his mission.
One question in this last scenario (BS following PoW): would Leach have ordered to counter-turn against the German ship (as his aft turret was not operational anyway....) or would he have tried to cover his ship under smoke without firing at all ? :think:


Re. your last question: had BS turned to avoid "torpedo" at 5:59, I guess Hood would not have blown up at 6:00, all battle geometry would have been scrambled and ..... who knows......
However, even with a German turn at 5:59 (back on 220° only at 6:02) and with Holland therefore able to reach a 15 km distance on almost parallel courses for a broadside duel, I would not put much money on Hood survival, as she was not immune to 15" shells and she could have blown up (just later) in any case. :(

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

@Alberto
It is a problem with Luetjens - always trying to avoid the battle... BUt in such a favorable position and with such small range, I think he could have ordered a turn to match Prince of Wales's heading... WHat was beyond the horizon... He couldn't know, but he wouldn't have required to learn about that. His pursuit couldn't have lasted more then 10-15 minutes, max 30, because of Bismarck's own forecastle damage and probable requirement to slow down the ship. In 15 minutes, Bismarck would have traveled ~ 10km, to little to come into range of "beyond the horizon" unknown enemies.. Of course Luetjens did not know about own damage at 6:04, but he could alter course to pursue the enemy for a "brief period of time" nonetheless...

Situation on PoW at 6:05: 5 forward 356mm guns operational, ship commanded from aft command position, best speed ~ 27kts.
Leach could have altered course in order to bring all 5 guns against Bismarck, but I doubt the guns would have had been efficient agaist Bismarck in those conditions. [that IF they would be operational at all by 6:05, as 380 and 203mm shells would have continued to be fired between 6:04 and 6:05 without the fake alarm... ]

---
With fake alarm at 5:59, I think the odds of a British victory are about 50/50, as Bismarck would lose firing solution, and be on a different course for ~ 1 minute, during which the BRitish would continue to fire. Then the Germans would need more time to re-aquire target... Time during which the British would continue approach and continue to fire ... THus probability of 381mm hit on Prinz Eugen increases, as well as 1 or 2 extra 356mm hits on Bismarck... Which... depending on the exact spot of the hits, can produce very bad consequences (a funnel hit such as the one Giulio Caesare suffered at Punto Stilio could lead to a sinking of the German battleship by 10:00AM in that morning. A con tower hit from 16km range could kill Luetjens and Lindemann, etc).
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Alec,
in the first scenario, in 10 minutes a British division coming from south-south east (the course of PoW retreating), can close by 10 sm on Bismarck (on opposite course), from beyond horizon position (20 sm) to effective gun range, and the retreat of PoW could have been interpreted exactly as the attempt to bring Bismarck under more concentrated fire.... As I said, with hindsight, it was the correct decision to follow and finish PoW, but at 6:03, being in Lutjens shoes and having his orders, I would have done the same he did (he was not aware of the damages of BS and he could still hope to be able to continue his mission without risking more shells on board).

Had Bismarck turned following PoW, being in Leach position, and having no aft guns, I think it was correct to say: "Ok guy, you decided to kill me. Be it, but I will take you down with me !" ordering max speed directly against Bismarck and having 5 fore guns available against 4 fore guns (+4 from PG), of course BS could then maneuver and PG is there with torpedoes too, but Norfolk is coming as well with torps.....). In any case, I don't think it would have been very wise to try to just escape, not having speed advantage at all and being totally unable to answer fire.....


In the second scenario (torp alarm at 5:59), it's well possible that things would have developed like you say, it's too difficult to guess. Looking at the efficiency of the German firing, however, I don't see Hood safe because at short distance the probability to get a "fatal" hit would have been too high anyway for the obsolete battlecruiser armor, even with Bismarck damaged. Of course the battle could have developed differently, possibly with PG sunk by Hood fire, Hood sunk by Bismarck and then a close range battle between a damaged (we cannot know how much... :think: ) Bismarck and a still efficient PoW.....


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

Hi Alberto,
This is how I view things: Bismarck would turn to course 110*, thereby firing with all 8 guns on PoW. Prinz Eugen would be doing the same. If any enemy force would be beyond the horizon , it should be making smoke. HIstorically in that morning, smoke was visible from at least 32km (if not 35), so any enemy ship or ships could be observed for a good while before entering gun range. In other words, if it was the case, Luetjesn had enough time to break off the pursuit.

As it was historicaly, Luetjens was a bit to far from PoW to order an effective chase...
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Alec,
on a stable course 110°, Bismarck (loosing anyway a bit of speed and the target for a while due to such an important maneuver) would have been in 10 minutes within torpedo range for Norfolk, that was around 12 to 13 sm far at 6:03 and was sailing 220°(Norfolk could correct her course to a better 230°/240°course for a perfect torpedo firing solution......)

To engage PoW on such course, Lutjens would have been obliged to dispatch PG against Norfolk before, keeping a course around 180° for a while, but even in this case IMHO PoW could still decide to turn against Bismarck with her 5 guns available instead of trying to escape without any main gun in action. Too many risks to be taken by Lutjens against his explicit mission orders.....

His priority was to exit the Denmark Strait and to cruise in Atlantic, Of course if he knew the final outcome of his mission, then the decision to follow PoW and to finish her was the correct one but at 6:02 Lutjens had to obey his orders.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by alecsandros »

Dear Alberto,
Norfolk would possibly be in torp launching range in 10 minutes (i.e at 6:13), but at that time, the action should be ended one way or another, as Bismarck's forecastle damage and enemy smoke screen would impose stopping the pursuit. If , by that time, important damge and speed reduction were obtained on PoW, things may be different - but so would be BS/PE course and speed (which would be making the torp launching solution irrelevant by the time the torps arived).

Also, if Norfolk would launch torps from max range (12km) at 6:13, the torps would move at 33kts, and would require 10 full minutes to travel the required distance, towards Bismarck's expected position at 6:23. Thus torp alarm could possibly be sounded at around 6:20 - and by that time the pursuit would certainly be over.

There is also the extermely small probability of such a torpedo hit from 12km...

Agreed Luetjens's priority was to break out and avoid more damage. My opinion is taht he did not know the extent of the damage he suffered in the forecastle, at 6:03 or so.
User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 3605
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Alecsandros wrote: "My opinion is that he did not know the extent of the damage he suffered in the forecastle, at 6:03 or so."
Ciao Alec,
I fully agree with you.

He might have been convinced he had no severe damage on board and he could successfully continue his mission, thus he carefully avoided any additional risk, as per his initial orders.

Had he known that BS was forced almost on a straight course to France with the whole RN searching for him, then an acceptable choice would have been to try to finish PoW (achieving at least a great propaganda result) and to try to get back home (very difficult, especially if PoW was turning against him and she was able, during her final battle, to put other hits on BS, as I would expect, looking at PoW shooting in the previous phase)....


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Steve Crandell
Senior Member
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: May 24 1941 - Tirpitz v Prince of Wales

Post by Steve Crandell »

RF wrote:This is going off topic, but I would add an aside that if Leach had continued the action and Marschall and not Lutjens was the Fleet Commander, I would have expected Marschall to allow Norfolk and Suffolk to close the range while POW gets clobbered, then Bismarck suddenly turns on Wake-Walker while Prinz Eugen torpedoes the POW. There is the possibility of all four RN ships being sunk with Bismarck, albeit damaged significantly, then free to head either back to Germany or to a Biscay port without being shadowed - all before Holland's destroyers get to the scene.
I think your timeline of "allow Norfolk and Suffolk to close the range while POW gets clobbered" implies that PoW "gets clobbered" much faster than was in fact possible. If PoW turned back toward the British cruisers, they would have been in action within minutes. Bismarck and PE being in pursuit would have been subject to torpedo attack almost immediately, not the reverse.
Post Reply