USS Arizona vs. Bizmark

Cpt. James T. Kirk · Post by **Cpt. James T. Kirk** » Tue May 30, 2006 11:33 am

Hello, I am new to here and this is my first ever post. I have always wondered since they were lost in their prime which one would have won or would it have been a stand off between the two if they met in the North Atlantic. Arizona has always been my favorite because I thought she never was given a chance to show her power in combat and she had just undergone a refit with a new radar system and rangefinder and It was the flagship of our battlefleet at Pearl. What are your impressions of this scenario? Thanks and hello to all of you. Kirk out!!

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Tue May 30, 2006 3:37 pm

Welcome to the forum!!!

Interesting scenario, an old lady against a brand new BB. Bismarck´s guns are 1" greater in calibre with a correspondingly heavier shell. But Arizona has 4 more guns.
On the protection side, Arizona´s deck is only 3" thick, which is rather thin by WWII standards. That coupled with Bismarck´s 8 kt advantage in speed gives her greater chances.

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Tue May 30, 2006 4:05 pm

Welcome to the forum Kirk, nuqneH!:
OK: The Arizona was an already obsolete ship, quite slow even for WWI and smaller. Bismarck was brand new and bigger. But let´s no talk and see both ships specifications:

I. Displacement
Bismarck: 41,700 tons standard & 50,900 tons full load
Arizona : 34,207 tons standard & 37,654 tons full load

II. Lenght, Beam & Draft
BismarcK: 251m, 36m, 10.2m
Arizona: 185.23m, 32.39m, 8.53m

III. Total Shaft Horsepower
Bismarck: 150,170 hp
Arizona: 35,081 hp

IV. Speed
Bismarck: 30.12 knots.
Arizona: 20.7 knots.

V. Total Armor
Bismarck: 17,540 tons
Arizona: 8,072 tons

VI. Main armament, range, shell weight, muzzle velocity, rate of fire
Bismarck: 8 x 15"/L47
Arizona: 12 x 14"/45 cal.

Bismarck: 38,880 yds.
Arizona: 34,000 yds.

Bismarck: 800 kg.
Arizona: 636.36 kg.

Bismarck: 2,690 ft/sec.
Arizona: 2,700 ft./sec.

Bismarck: 2.4 per minute
Arizona: 1.5 per minute

As we can check the Bismarck was not only a bigger ship with more horsepower and speed but with better armor and armament. We have to consider that Bismarck armor pattern was a lot more sophisticated and of a new Krupp steel composite. The 8 x 15"/L47 would outgun the Arizona´s 12 x 14"/45 cal. in a long range duel with deadly plunging fire and very precise fire direction. In a medium or short range combat the Bismarck´s more accurate fire direction and faster rate of fire would also seal doom for the American dreadnought.
The result is that Bismarck would emerge the winner.
I believe that Bismarck would have win even over any of the Colorado Class BBs with their 16"/45 cal. Mark V main guns. Fighting with the South Dakotas would be something a little bit different, but something that Bismarck could stand... or not?

Best regards,

He qhlu´meH QaQ jajvam! (that´s klingonese for those who don´t know)

Cpt. James T. Kirk · Post by **Cpt. James T. Kirk** » Tue May 30, 2006 9:01 pm

The battleships that sunk the Bizmark where older style weren't they? I was wondering what their specifications were against the Arizona or if they were of equal power? It was the Rodney and I can not think of the other. Anyway thanks for the welcome.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:24 pm

Hi James T. Kirk.

The other ship was the King George V

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:45 pm

Nelson had 16" guns, 2" greater that Arizona´s. Besides Bismarck had a rudder damaged, she could not manouver.

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:49 pm

Capt. Kirk wrote:

The battleships that sunk the Bizmark where older style weren't they? I was wondering what their specifications were against the Arizona or if they were of equal power? It was the Rodney and I can not think of the other. Anyway thanks for the welcome.

Two battleships were present on 27th May sinking the Bismarck: Rodney and King George V. Only the Rodney could be considered "not new" because the KGVs were all new, not old BBs at all. KGV was one of the five sisterships the Royal Navy was comissioning those days: KGV, Prince of Wales (that fought and lost against Bismarck and had to disengage at Denmarck Straits), Howe, Anson and Duke of York. Only the HMS Vanguard was a "newer" British Battleship than those five (and extremely powerfull) sisters. The Rodney was built in 1927 (was "just" 14 years old, not a WWI veteran at all) and had 16"/45 cal. guns in three triple turrets (9 x 16"). Whatsoever the issue was that when these two BBs and supporting fleet of cruisers and destroyers engaged Bismarck, the German ship was already damaged by the Ark Royal Aicraft Carrier´s Swordfish air strike and had it´s rudder completly damaged and doing only 7 knots. But the British ships had to fire more than two thousand shells (14" + 16"+ shells from the cruisers) and torpedoes to bring the enemy defenseless.
The Bismarck, confronted by the same force but without the crippling damage at her rudder (that affected her fire direction too) and doing 20+ knots would had been a more superior foe that, very possible, could have seriously damaged or sunk one of the two: the KGV or the Rodney.
Returning to the thread let´s say that KGV and Rodney were newer and more sophisticated BBs than Arizona. In a fight against that specific American dreadnought they would certainly win.
Best regards.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Tue May 30, 2006 10:51 pm

Arizona would never be able to catch Bismarck unless in circumstances like May 27th 1941

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Tue May 30, 2006 11:06 pm

Gary wrote:

Arizona would never be able to catch Bismarck unless in circumstances like May 27th 1941

And if somehow it did then the hunter would become the game...

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Tue May 30, 2006 11:22 pm

You guys know what is coming next

Did Arizona have a sloped armour deck behind her main belt?

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Tue May 30, 2006 11:28 pm

Let´s find out

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Wed May 31, 2006 1:49 am

Couldn´t find armour scheme details on Arizona, but Ian Sturton (All the World´s Battleships) says it was armoured in the same way as Nevada. For Nevada he gives the main armoured deck (3") sited on top of the armoured belt, and below a splinter deck, 1" on the flat en 1.5" on the slopes, merged with the lower end of the belt.

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:37 pm

I found these specifications about Arizona´s armor:

ARMOR
BELT
14" AMIDSHIPS, TAPERING TO 8" ENDS. ENTIRE BELT EXTENDS 9' ABOVE WATERLINE AND 8' 6" BELOW. PROTECTED TURRET MAGAZINES AND AMIDSHIPS MACHINERY SPACES.
DECK
4" OUTBOARD STRAKES (UPPER DECK); 6" AMIDSHIPS.
2" OUTBOARD STRAKES (LOWER DECK). PROTECTED MACHINERY AREAS AND STEERING GEAR FROM PLUNGING FIRE.
FUNNEL 15" AT BASE OF BOILER UPTAKES, TAPERING TO 9" AT THE UPPER DECK. ARMORED GRATING INSIDE FUNNEL AT THE LEVEL OF THE SECOND DECK.
TURRETS 18" FACES; 9" SIDES; 9" REARS; 5" TOPS; 2" ON EXPOSED UNDERSIDES.
BARBETTES 13" ABOVE SECOND DECK; 4.5" BETWEEN SECOND AND THIRD DECKS.
CONNING TOWER 16" SIDES; TWO 4" LAYERS ON TOP.
CONNING TOWER TUBE 5' INSIDE DIAMETER FROM THIRD DECK TO CONNING TOWER BASE; 16" ARMOR ABOVE SECOND DECK, 6" BELOW.
LONGITUDINAL TORPEDO BULKHEADS TWO, CONTINUOUS EACH SIDE FROM FRAME 20 TO 127; 60-LB TREATED STEEL PLATING OUTER BULKHEAD, NORMAL STRUCTURAL STEEL INNER BULKHEAD. TOTAL WIDTH OF PROTECTION EACH SIDE IS 11' 9".
TRANSVERSE TORPEDO BULKHEADS FOUR 40-LB TREATED STEEL BULKHEADS OUTBOARD THE OUTER LONGITUDINAL BULKHEAD AT FRAMES 23, 30, 90, AND 120.
TOTAL PUBLISHED ARMOR WEIGHT 8,072 TONS

Nothing about slope armour deck behind the main belt armor.

Hartmann10 · Post by **Hartmann10** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:02 pm

Hello to all and wellcome to board Kirk

.

Did Arizona have a sloped armour deck behind her main belt?

If I remember well

, the "Arizona", as "Nevada", beeing a "AoN" armour scheme, hadn´t sloped armour (the only example which I remember of such thing like a "AoN" with slopes is the "Richelieu"), but I can´t assure this.
Best regards to all

Coyote850 · Post by **Coyote850** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:36 am

Arizona would not have had a chance. She was old and slow. And just a minor correction, the Pennsylvania was the Flagship of the Pacific fleet at the time of Pearl Harbor.