USS Arizona vs. Bizmark

[Kyler]

Bismarck with his speed could dictate the entire battle unless Arizona got a luck hit that saw Bismarck to lose much of its speed advantage.

I would give the Bismarck 4 to 1 odds

[Bgile]

Bismarck with his speed could dictate the entire battle unless Arizona got a luck hit that saw Bismarck to lose much of its speed advantage.

I would give the Bismarck 4 to 1 odds

How does Bismarck "dictate the battle"? I don't understand what you mean.

[RF]

If a Japanese bomber can blow the Arizona's magazines, I'm sure Bismarck could.

The fact that a Japanese level bomber was able to drop a special bomb from 10,000 feet on a stationary Arizona and blow up a small black powder store which in turn set off the Magazine ... is irrelevant to this discussion.

Tirpitz was destroyed by a special bomb. Of what relevance is that? None whatsoever.

Your use of the word ''irrelevant'' is opinion not fact. If I thought it was irrelevant I would not have mentioned it, you are free to differ.

Your reference to Tirpitz probably wasn't relevant, not because Tirpitz was sunk but because the bombs capsized the ship, not blew it up.

[Kyler]

Bismarck with his speed could dictate the entire battle unless Arizona got a luck hit that saw Bismarck to lose much of its speed advantage.

I would give the Bismarck 4 to 1 odds

How does Bismarck "dictate the battle"? I don't understand what you mean.

22kts v 31kts, Bismarck could use its speed to either flee, or dictate the time and place in which it wanted to fight the battle. This factor would have given the Bismarck a very important advantage if they ever fought 1 on 1.

[Legend]

It doesn't matter if Bismarck flees. The point of this scenario is to see which one would be victorious in battle. If Bismarck was damaged enough to want to flee... she would probably be going allot slower than 31 knots. Arizona has supposedly inferior armor... and i do not know the accuracy of her guns, but i do know that if Bismarck tried to "maneuver to her advantage" by jumping out of range and then coming in from another angle, all Arizona would have to do is turn as soon as they regained visual contact to set all 12 guns on Bismarck.

14in verses 15in isn't so big a difference as our usual 14in verses 16in that we compare the KGV class and the Iowas with... but it is still a margin to consider. From the hits Bismarck took from PoW I can only assume an Arizona 14in would be just as devastating?

[Bgile]

22kts v 31kts, Bismarck could use its speed to either flee, or dictate the time and place in which it wanted to fight the battle. This factor would have given the Bismarck a very important advantage if they ever fought 1 on 1.

I have been thinking, and it still seems to me that once Bismarck decides to accept battle, speed only allows her to dictate the final range. It isn't clear to me that that would have much effect on the outcome. Now, if one side wants to disengage because they are losing, speed could be decisive. It doesn't make your guns more accurate or your armor thicker, though. It really doesn't make you enough harder to hit to make much difference.

[RF]

From the hits Bismarck took from PoW I can only assume an Arizona 14in would be just as devastating?

Of the three hits POW landed on Bismarck, only one was significant. In the final action the majority of the damage to Bismarck came from Roidney, the KGV scored hits but again only one, from what I recall did significant damage on its own.

The only real answer to this question would come from a prolonged action - which of course never happened.

[Thorsten Wahl]

Back to Arizona vs Bismarck

The SK 38 is able to pentrate Arizonas belt up to distances of around 25.000 yards to create primary damage on vital things like machinery or ammunition

On the other side, according to calculations wit Naab the US 14"/45 (35.6 cm) gun was not able to penetrate Bismarcks belt and slope at distances over 6.000 yards to do the same bad things. The "only" thing, what happens is structural damage on more or less nonvital installations or even a outknocked mount or secondary damage by blast , shock, fire and so on.

[Bgile]

I have no doubt there is a difference in protection between the two ships. What is the relative penetration range against each other's turret faces and barbettes?

With respect to belt and slope penetration, it's well known that Bismarck's belt/slope is pretty much immune to penetration by anything, whether 6,000 yds or zero yds. It's fairly shallow though, and shells can get under it at typical combat ranges, as evidenced by the hit from PoW.

[Thorsten Wahl]

both barbettes were expected to be penetrated at distances less than 24.000 yards (Bis slightly better)
on turret fronts roughly draw at 19.000 yards.

The SK 38 is able to penetrate roughly 2" more armor at distances around 20.000 yards than the US 14" Gun
and the KC/na steel is aproximatly 4%-5% better in his ballistic abilities than the US Steel.

[alecsandros]

The speed difference is also quite important, IMO: a ship moving at 22kts can only cover a certain maximum distance in the time the enemies shells traveled in the air. A ship at 30kts can be in a wider area.

22kts ~ 40.000m/hour ~ 11.32 m/s
30kts ~ 55.560m/h ~ 15.43 m/s

Say the battle starts at 25.000m, Arizona fires 14"/45 with 792m/s (initial speed). I don't remember the formula, but the shell would be in the air for about 35-45 seconds. That means the Bismarck could be anywhere from 0 to 539 - 694 meters away from the initial spot (2-3 ship lengths).

On the other hand, the Bismarck fires 15"/52 with 820m/s. In the time the shell is in the air, the Arizona can move anywhere from 0 to 396-509 meters away from the initial spot (2-2.5 ship lengths).

P.S.: My example is a gross simplification of the real battle (the ships can steer, not following a "track", the final distance can never be "0", even if the ship goes to full stop, because of its intertia, etc) but I hope it helps to picture that the speed is a much more important factor in a naval battle.

[Bgile]

Speed wouldn't make much difference in gunnery unless you are making significant turns, which in 1941 would effect your own gunnery quite a bit. Once you know how fast the opponent is going, you shoot at the spot where he will be when the shells get there.

[alecsandros]

Ok, but a ship's speed can vary during the battle, given to battle damage/repairs, tight turns, machinery failure, etc.
Also, the turns made during a battle do affect the firing solution, but that might be a risk the captain needs to take (especialy when HE hasn't the range, while the enemy just straddled him).

I'm not saying that speed is everything; of course it ain't. I'm saying it is more important than just deciding "which ship can run away".

Cheers

[Bgile]

Ok, but a ship's speed can vary during the battle, given to battle damage/repairs, tight turns, machinery failure, etc.
Also, the turns made during a battle do affect the firing solution, but that might be a risk the captain needs to take (especialy when HE hasn't the range, while the enemy just straddled him).

I'm not saying that speed is everything; of course it ain't. I'm saying it is more important than just deciding "which ship can run away".

Cheers

Why is it that I think you would take the opposite point of view if we were discussing Bismarck vs Iowa?

[alecsandros]

Why is it that I think you would take the opposite point of view if we were discussing Bismarck vs Iowa?

Got me figured :P KGM fan

However, the harsh reality is that the Iowa's were better in all aspects regarding ship-to-ship battles, so, with great pain, I must say that the Bismarck would only win by luck. In fact, the Iowa would do the Bismarck the same thing Bismarck would do to Warspite: it's just a different league, in terms of armor, guns, speed, fire control, you name it.

Cheers

P.S: Hope I won't get lynched by BS/TZ fans