H-Klasse Battleship vs. 2 Iowas

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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miro777
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H-Klasse Battleship vs. 2 Iowas

Post by miro777 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:16 pm

hey
now that I was told that a Bismarck class BB can not withstand a Iowa class BB, i was wondering if a H-class BB can take on two.

She can surely take on ONE Iowa. Right?

but TWO?
If it's too uneven we can also include a Scharnhorst on the German side.
But first evaluate
H-class
vs.
2 Iowas

adios
miro
Die See ruft....

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Post by Bgile » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:41 pm

Obviously one Iowa yes. I've argued that Bismarck could defeat an Iowa under the right conditions.

I appreaciate having lots of interesting discussions, but to me H-class is "pie in the sky" kind of thing and too theoretical to really give too much thought to.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:18 pm

Better still: one H Class + one Bismarck Class vs. two Iowas.

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miro777
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Post by miro777 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:16 pm

hey

i see what u mean...but let's just say
that the KM launched successfully the DKM Hindenburg
8*16in guns main armament.
now this ship goes against 2 Iowas.
Now we don't know how good the radars at Hindeburg were (DT Geraet) or how the firecontrol, etc. (basically how she fought)

but let's still imagine that
so then we gotta look at it practically
guns against gans.
wat will happen?
bye
miro
Die See ruft....

Monitor
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Post by Monitor » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:50 pm

The Iowa Class and the H-Class are contemporary designs from 1943, but 2 Iowas vs. 1 H-39 and the German ship is sunk without doubt. 1 Iowa vs. 1 H-39 and anything can happen.

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miro777
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Post by miro777 » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:08 am

hey
do u really think that between a Iowa and a H-class ANYTHING could happen????
of course there are those moments, whcih no one can change (hood incident), but if nothing like this would happen....
from ealrier discussions i heard that even a Bismarck could stand against a Iowa
then a H-class could crush her!!!

couldn't she?

well
adios
miro
Die See ruft....

Monitor
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Post by Monitor » Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:31 pm

In a battle fought under the same conditions both sides I think anything could happen between an Iowa and a H-Class.

The Iowa has nine 16 inch guns vs. eight 16 inch guns of the H-Class.
An Iowa is 2-3 knots faster than an H-Class.
I rate the armor more or less the same for both designs. Iowa has thicker plates in turrets and conning tower and the H-Class has a greater volume protected.

This battle could go either way.

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Post by Bgile » Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:49 pm

It's hard to predict any fight between two ships shooting battleship size guns at each other.

USS Tenessee, completely rebuilt after Pearl Harbor and armed with 12 14" guns (more powerful weapons than KGV guns) would also be able to defeat Bismarck under the right conditions, considering Bismarck with superior speed accepted combat or was surprised.

It's just really hard to say definitively what would happen. The newer, better protected ship has an advantage, obviously.

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FCS

Post by George Gerolimatos » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:56 am

I think we tend to focus on number of guns, weight of fire, and armor too much, especially when we forget other extremely important aspects like fire control. This was an area where American BBs and most other vessels FAR surpassed anything the Axis powers could come up with. It seems most of the hypothetical scenarios people come up with assumes "normal" conditions, that is, clear visibility, even crew abilities, and so on. In this kind of straight-up slugfest I think the Americans would have a great advantage. I've used a sophisticated and highly detailed wargame to match up Yamato, Musashi vs North Carolina and Washington. The American fire control carried the day. It seems strange, but the Japanese BBs, for all their armor and extremely potent 18" guns, forgot to really advance fire control. It's as if they're huge boxers with poor eyesight- it doesn't matter how big your guns (or arms) are or your ability to withstand hits is if you can't hit your target! I suspect that German battleships would have had much the same trouble, like Iowa vs H-class.
George G.

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Re: FCS

Post by Bgile » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:14 pm

George Gerolimatos wrote:I think we tend to focus on number of guns, weight of fire, and armor too much, especially when we forget other extremely important aspects like fire control. This was an area where American BBs and most other vessels FAR surpassed anything the Axis powers could come up with. It seems most of the hypothetical scenarios people come up with assumes "normal" conditions, that is, clear visibility, even crew abilities, and so on. In this kind of straight-up slugfest I think the Americans would have a great advantage. I've used a sophisticated and highly detailed wargame to match up Yamato, Musashi vs North Carolina and Washington. The American fire control carried the day. It seems strange, but the Japanese BBs, for all their armor and extremely potent 18" guns, forgot to really advance fire control. It's as if they're huge boxers with poor eyesight- it doesn't matter how big your guns (or arms) are or your ability to withstand hits is if you can't hit your target! I suspect that German battleships would have had much the same trouble, like Iowa vs H-class.

George G.
From all accounts, Bismarck's gunnery was excellent during the Denmark Strait engagement. I'm curious why you think American gunnery was better. I don't really know of any reason to feel one was better than the other, with the obvious exception of radar controlled fire. I do think the US fire control equipment was better toward the end of the war, but I'd be interested in why you think it was in 1941.

Incidentally, I'm not sure why one would compare Iowa class to H class. Why not Montana vs H? The Montanas would have been much superior to the Iowas, both in firepower and especially in protection. They would have been slower.

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FC

Post by George Gerolimatos » Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:10 pm

Hi,
It's a common misperception to think that the superiority of American FC rested on radar. In fact, American FC was better by the much more sophisticated computers and mechanisms that directed the guns. To be honest, I don't fully understand the technicalities of it, but a wargame system called Seekrieg 5 has American FCS supplied with "stable elements," "fully-remote power control," and other tracking systems which the Germans didn't have. Radar was useful at night or in conditions of poor visibility, which would again have given the Americans a prohibitve advantage.

Bismarck did shoot excellently at Denmark Straight. The question is, if she had faced North Carolina-class BBs instead of the old Hood, with her inferior FC, whether the German BB would have fared as well.

If the H-class faced a Montana, then the German's chances would be even worse. With 12 x 16" guns firing super-heavy 2,700 lbs shells at great distances accurately, the H-class would under normal circumstances be annihilated.

That's why I rarely enter into discussions like this; people might complain that American BBs are given "unfair" advantages in terms of guns, armor, and FC, but the fact is that American BBs (of the later generations, of course) were superior to their Axis counterparts. America had every advantage in terms of geographical security (two oceans), incredible industrial capacity, and design know-how to match. If there would be straight-match ups between numerically equivalent American and Axis heavy units, the fight would almost always favor the Americans.

But naval warfare isn't a video game with idealized opponents. The Japanese, for example, gained the upper-hand in some battles because of their early superiority in night-fighting techniques, despite the nominal American advantage in radar FC. Different commanders had different missions to accomplish, and missions were rarely "go out and sink whatever you see," but often island-invasion support, convoy protection, and so on. Thus I think it's unrealistic, even pointless, to simply "count guns" or armor or anything else and pronounce one ship superior than another. It's much better to game a scenario on the table, with specific conditons in order to reflect the reality of naval warfare. American BBs were nominally (i.e., by counting guns and everything else) superior to Axis BBs; what makes naval warfare interesting is that local conditions may favor the losing side, making battles not as hopeless as they would be in idealized, fantasy battles.
George G.

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Post by Bgile » Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:42 pm

George,

The reason we compare these things is we like to. It's fun! You seem to be saying there is no purpose to compare these ships, but we who study them think it's fun to do so, so we do. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

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Post by marcelo_malara » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:35 pm

Comparing gun, ammo and armour is a starting point. Somewhere you have to start...

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Post by RF » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:29 am

Monitor wrote:In a battle fought under the same conditions both sides I think anything could happen between an Iowa and a H-Class.

The Iowa has nine 16 inch guns vs. eight 16 inch guns of the H-Class.
An Iowa is 2-3 knots faster than an H-Class.
I rate the armor more or less the same for both designs. Iowa has thicker plates in turrets and conning tower and the H-Class has a greater volume protected.

This battle could go either way.
How about an H-Class vs. Rodney?

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Post by Karl Heidenreich » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:54 pm

H Class wins, no doubt. I wonder if Rodney could survive against Bismarck in the first place.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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