Hood versus Nagato

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paulcadogan
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Hood versus Nagato

Post by paulcadogan »

Hey guys,

Just occurred to me that I've never seen a discussion of an encounter between Hood and Nagato - please correct me if I'm wrong.

After all, they were true contemporaries, completed in the same time period, though Nagato was reconstructed to an extent. Consider Hood in her as-sunk fit taking on Nagato in her 1941 fit..

How did the Japanese 16-inch shell measure up, given Hood's vulnerabilities? Could Nagato's upgraded armour scheme handle the British 15-inch (I suspect her as built scheme would have been just as vulnerable as Hood's)? What about FC - with Hood's Type 284 radar to help her old Dreyer table vs. Nagato's WW2 system?

My feeling is that this is a toss-up and would be heavily dependent on who could get in the most damaging hit first....but you tell me.... :think:

Paul
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alecsandros
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Re: Hood versus Nagato

Post by alecsandros »

Is there any aspect in which Hood would have advantage over Nagato ? I can't think of any except speed...
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paulcadogan
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Re: Hood versus Nagato

Post by paulcadogan »

Maybe a fairer comparison would have been "as completed" for both.

Hood had slightly thicker vertical protection, including turrets and barbettes - was Nagato's belt (11.8 in) inclined? Their deck plating was similar as built, but Nagato's was slightly increased during reconstruction, but not by much.

Nagato's shells were only about 200 lb heavier, but how did the MV and penetrating power compare?

Hood's shells penetrated the vitals of Bretagne and Dunkerque (Bretagne's belt was about 1-inch thinner, but her deck plating was similar) but we only have the CVE Gambier Bay as Nagato's sole gunnery victim...
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Rick Rather
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Re: Hood versus Nagato

Post by Rick Rather »

...or for those with a twisted sense of humor, Hood versus Mutsu.
Just because it's stupid, futile and doomed to failure, that doesn't mean some officer won't try it.
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alecsandros
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Re: Hood versus Nagato

Post by alecsandros »

:))

Hood vs Mutsu and they both blow up.

===
One thing which is usualy not adressed in these kind of scenarios is the fuze delay for heavy shells. British WW2 shells had delays of 0.025s on average, thus a shell exiting a perforated plate with 300m/s remaining velocity would travel 7.5 meters before exploding.

Japanese shells were usualy fitted with the 0.4seconds fuze delay, which was absolutely enormous. The same shell, exiting the plate at 300m/s would have to travel 120meters before exploding !
(These fuzes were expected to function underwater, allowing the shells to travel a considerable distance, perforate beneath the armor belt of the target and them explode)

IF such a shell would hit the Hood above the waterline it would most likely become a dud, as the fuze would be damaged by repeated shocks suffered by the shell traveling inside the ship (and ricocheting from heavy armor once in a while)

But , IF the shell would a carry a normal fuze, I don't see the Hood all to well. The 410mm shells had massive hitting power, and the British battlecruiser could be in a lot of trouble quite fast...
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Re: Hood versus Nagato

Post by paulcadogan »

Rick Rather wrote:...or for those with a twisted sense of humor, Hood versus Mutsu.
:lol: Good one Rick! But Alec...not so fast...Hood wins without firing a shot!!

Very interesting about the Japanese fuse delay.....what was the rationale for that long delay?? Even a direct magazine hit might pass right through the ship without exploding. Was that really the case in practice?

And for the British shell too...I believe Hood's shells went a lot further than 7.5 m when the got into Dunkerque and Bretagne before exploding.

I agree completely that Hood could be in serious trouble should Nagato/Mutsu lay their battery on target - but by that same token, especially in their as built state, less so for their reconstructed state, the reverse could be true!

Nagato's shells weighed 2185 lb vs. 1920 lb for Hood. Their guns were of similar vintage, so probably had a similar RoF - how did the MV's compare?
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Rick Rather
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Re: Hood versus Nagato

Post by Rick Rather »

Mutsu fires at Hood and blows it up - Then blows-up also. :shock:

I recently played a game of Command at Sea based on a scenario from this board: The Twins versus Warspite & Valiant. Some deft maneuvering by the British suckered the Germans in to ~14kyds. The Germans were turning to open the range when Valiant detonated Gneisenau's aft magazine. However, Gneisenau's last salvo hit Valiant's forward magazine and blew her up, too. :!:
Just because it's stupid, futile and doomed to failure, that doesn't mean some officer won't try it.
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Re: Hood versus Nagato

Post by alecsandros »

paulcadogan wrote:
Rick Rather wrote:...or for those with a twisted sense of humor, Hood versus Mutsu.
:lol: Good one Rick! But Alec...not so fast...Hood wins without firing a shot!!
That's true! Mutsu blows up before Hood had a chance to open fire.
I can imagine, somewhere in 1943, a lone Mutsu going head on against a lonely Hood... And with the chances of the Japanese crumbling, the commander of MUtsu says.. "let's not give them the satisfaction of blowing us up! Let's go in the powder magazines with some cigarettes and smoke each others to death!"

Very interesting about the Japanese fuse delay.....what was the rationale for that long delay?? Even a direct magazine hit might pass right through the ship without exploding. Was that really the case in practice?
Well, from what I read, the Japanese navy had very high hopes for underwater shell hits. They hoped that a shell, if correctly designed and perfected, would hit the water before the target, say 40-50 meters, and then travel on a bell-shaped trajectory, and hit the target beneath the armor belt.
The fuze was so long because it would take a long time of travel through the water ...

It seems this is the reason why SOuth Dakota escaped being crippled at Guadalcanal: out of the 26 shells that hit her, most if not all simply passed through the superstructures without exploding.. thus the damage done was through impact shock alone... no blast damage..
And for the British shell too...I believe Hood's shells went a lot further than 7.5 m when the got into Dunkerque and Bretagne before exploding.
Clearly!
I just gave a random example of 300m/s exit velocity. But probably in the cases of Dunkerque and Bretagne, the exit v. was more like 450-500m/s or more.
Also, the 0.025s fuze delay wasn't perfectly accurate; some variations were almost certain. But that was the British average, if I remember correctly...
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Re: Hood versus Nagato

Post by paulcadogan »

alecsandros wrote:Well, from what I read, the Japanese navy had very high hopes for underwater shell hits. They hoped that a shell, if correctly designed and perfected, would hit the water before the target, say 40-50 meters, and then travel on a bell-shaped trajectory, and hit the target beneath the armor belt.
The fuze was so long because it would take a long time of travel through the water ...

It seems this is the reason why SOuth Dakota escaped being crippled at Guadalcanal: out of the 26 shells that hit her, most if not all simply passed through the superstructures without exploding.. thus the damage done was through impact shock alone... no blast damage..
That's phenomenal! I did not know that - and just found a document on SoDak's battle damage (which I suspect you've read as it says exactly what you've said) which I'll read in detail later. In that case, I do give Hood a bit of an edge in my hypothetical because if a high proportion of the Japanese shells fail to explode in the right place, she'll have more of an opportunity to score hits of her own - and we know the British 15-inch was capable of doing its duty....

And BTW....back to the DS - lucky for PoW that it wasn't a Japanese shell that penetrated to her double bottom! It's a good example of what they wanted to accomplish isn't it...

But thanks for the laughs guys...sometimes we need to "take serious things make joke" as we say in Jamaica! :D
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