Bismarck used as bait

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kevin32422
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Bismarck used as bait

Post by kevin32422 »

Suppose the Bismarck was used as bait to draw the British fleet over wolfpack submarine screens, I understand the Germans had such screens in place any takers on what would have happened if this would have been used?
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Ersatz Yorck
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by Ersatz Yorck »

kevin32422 wrote:Suppose the Bismarck was used as bait to draw the British fleet over wolfpack submarine screens, I understand the Germans had such screens in place any takers on what would have happened if this would have been used?
It proved notoriously difficult to coordinate submarines and surface ships in both world wars. There were fears about such submarine traps already in WW1, but in practice it is hard to set up and the risk is very real of embarrasing friendly fire incidents where the subs torpedo the wrong ship. Also warships maneuvering at high speed is not an easy target for submarines, so the efficacy of such a trap is doubtful.
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by tommy303 »

If I recall correctly, the Chief of Fleet, Admiral Luetjens requested a U-boat concentration south of Greenland to lure Wake-Walkers cruisers and the Prince of Wales into a trap and thereby assist Bismarck in making good her escape.
In the event, Prinz Eugen was detached successfully and Bismarck broke contact with her shadowers, making the trap unnecessary. Given the seas and general conditions, it would have been a difficult time for the U-boats and their crews. At best, under the weather conditions prevailing, a boat might make only six or eight knots; any faster and one risked injury to crew inside, and possible death to one or more of the lookouts on the conningtower topside.

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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by kevin32422 »

I think this could have been done at the Denmark Straits, Iceland Faero Passages, and around the Orkney Islands if the seas would have permitted this it could have been a disaster for the British because the focus was on the Bismarck and not the subs so much during the chase of the Bismarck.
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by Ersatz Yorck »

kevin32422 wrote:I think this could have been done at the Denmark Straits, Iceland Faero Passages, and around the Orkney Islands if the seas would have permitted this it could have been a disaster for the British because the focus was on the Bismarck and not the subs so much during the chase of the Bismarck.
Nope, it would have been a boon to the British to divert a substantial proportion of the submarines at sea from their main job, sinking merchants, which they were rather good at, to an in all likelihood unworkable scheme involving trying to sink warships maneuvering at 25+ knots which they were rather bad at.

In both world wars, AFAIK no warship was ever hit by a submarine torpedo while in surface action. The only naval battle ever featuring both submarines and surface ships was Casablanca, where quite a number of submarines were active in a small area crammed with both warships and troopships, and that was far from a disaster for the americans. The French submarines there did launch a number of torpedoes, but they didn't hit anything. The two German subs that did make it there a couple of days later sank a couple of transports, but no warship.
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

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Ersatz Yorck wrote: In both world wars, AFAIK no warship was ever hit by a submarine torpedo while in surface action.
I'm sorry, but this is completely incorrect.
Barham, Wasp, North Carolina, Yorktown, Rodney, Resolution, Yamato, are the first that come to my mind.
All of them hit (and a few sunk) by sumbarine-launched torpedoes while in surface action.
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by Ersatz Yorck »

alecsandros wrote:
Ersatz Yorck wrote: In both world wars, AFAIK no warship was ever hit by a submarine torpedo while in surface action.
I'm sorry, but this is completely incorrect.
Barham, Wasp, North Carolina, Yorktown, Rodney, Resolution, Yamato, are the first that come to my mind.
All of them hit (and a few sunk) by sumbarine-launched torpedoes while in surface action.
While in surface action???? Could you please specify the situations and which enemy surface ships they were in action with when they were hit by submarine torpedoes?
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by alecsandros »

Ersatz Yorck wrote: While in surface action???? Could you please specify the situations and which enemy surface ships they were in action with when they were hit by submarine torpedoes?
Ah, you meant while in a naval battle...

I was referring to the ships in the open seas, making close to maximum speed. My impression is that this is good enough...
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by Ersatz Yorck »

I didn't mean that warships were never hit by submarines, but that it was much harder to torpedo a warship maneuvering at high speed that an merchant ship, and submarines were relatively less effective in that role. So taking submarines off attacking merchant shipping and sending them on an uncertain mission to attack warships would actually take pressure off the British. And the object of naval warfare is to stop the enemy merchant ships, sinking warshis is just a means to an end. As the submarines were already sinking merchants as it were, sending them to sink warships, while perhaps more interesting and glorious, would be putting the cart before the horse so to speak. Exactly the trap the Japanese fell into with their submarine operations as it happens.

BTW AFAIK in most of the cases you cite the target ships were cruising or even crippled (Yorktown), not at high speed.

Arranging submarine traps in conjunction with surface actions never worked out. Both the British and the Germans had submarines outside each others bases at Jutland for example, but for various reasons, mostly because operations were slightly delayed and it was impossible to tell the subs, neither sides submarines accomplished anything, despite being placed exactly where the enemy fleet had to pass twice.
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by alecsandros »

Ersatz Yorck wrote:
BTW AFAIK in most of the cases you cite the target ships were cruising or even crippled (Yorktown), not at high speed.
No,
all ships listed above except Yorktown were doing good speed at the moment of torpedo attack.
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

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kevin32422 wrote:Suppose the Bismarck was used as bait to draw the British fleet over wolfpack submarine screens, I understand the Germans had such screens in place any takers on what would have happened if this would have been used?
Comung back to the original proposition, as already mentioned Lutjens was aware of the possibility.

However I think the best chance the Germans had of doing such an operation would have been in Biscay, around where Bismarck was crippled by the hit on the stern. A concentration of U-boats plus Luftwaffe bombers would have been required, with close co-operation between them. It could have been done in conjunction with using ocean-going tugs to tow Bismarck in, though that would have been a risky operation.
But the Germans didn't have enough subs or aircraft and lacked the necessary inter-service co-ordination....
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by alecsandros »

RF wrote:
kevin32422 wrote: It could have been done in conjunction with using ocean-going tugs to tow Bismarck in, though that would have been a risky operation.
But the Germans didn't have enough subs or aircraft and lacked the necessary inter-service co-ordination....
...
Well, they positioned several U-boats along Bismarck's course. ONe of them, [I don't remember the name], actualy got the chance of a clean shot on Rodney, but... it did not have any more torpedoes to use.
The day after Bismarck's scuttling, Ju-88s and FW-200 Condors attacked British warships returning to base after Bismarck's demise. The destroyer HMS Mashona was bombed and sunk in this raid.
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

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alecsandros wrote:ONe of them, [I don't remember the name], actualy got the chance of a clean shot on Rodney, but... it did not have any more torpedoes to use.
It was the U-556, but it was not the Rodney - it was Force H, actually Renown and Ark Royal - no destroyers, no Sheffield. Her Commander Wolfarth did not have to do much - he was pefrectly positioned for using his bow and stern tubes to attack both almost simultaneously - but he had no torpedoes left. But even if he had and was able to score hits, he would not have changed Bismarck's fate as the crippling Swordfish attack had already been launched.....
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

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alecsandros wrote: The day after Bismarck's scuttling, Ju-88s and FW-200 Condors attacked British warships returning to base after Bismarck's demise. The destroyer HMS Mashona was bombed and sunk in this raid.
A more concentrated attack the day before could have had devasting results..... if Rodney and KGV had been sunk in the same way that POW/Repulse were lost off Malaya, Bismarck could then have been rescued by tugs.
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Re: Bismarck used as bait

Post by tommy303 »

There were seven U-boats in the general area, but of those, U-556 and U-98 had expended their torpedoes, leaving only U-48, 73, 74, 97, and 108. These were severly hampered by heavy seas and weather, and a general uncertainty of Bismarck's actual position; BdU reported use of weapons was barely possible.

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What God abandoned these defended;
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