HK Pinguin + HK Atlantis vs. HMS Cornwall

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
User avatar
miro777
Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

HK Pinguin + HK Atlantis vs. HMS Cornwall

Post by miro777 »

hey
if u ever heard about the not very famous battle between HK Pinguin and HMS Cornwall, then
what would have been the outcome if another HK (the Atlantis) would have aided the Pinguin?
for all others: Cornwall: 8x8in
atlantis and pinguin: 6x6in
same place...that spot in the indian ocean 3 N, 53O

adios
miro
Die See ruft....
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF »

The hilfskreuzer were not designed to fight real warships, certainly not above 6 inch guns level.

They would both be sunk in minutes, unless they could get Cornwall into point blank range and with total surprise. Even then the example of Kormoran/Sydney ambush wouldn't work as even here the German raider was still lost against a 6 inch cruiser!

No they have as much chance as Jervis Bay did against Admiral Scheer.

As an aside I believe that Atlantis did encounter Nelson and Eagle at close range at night. Atlantis wasn't spotted - but if she had the torpedo armament of a German destroyer she might have sunk both British ships.
The point of this is that the firepower of the hilfskreuzer was only sufficient to despatch merchant ships - the Germans failed to build specially designed, more heavily armed Q-Ship raiders, if they had it could have been a very different story.

Just imagine the impact of a vessel with the firepower of a Panzerschiffe that had the profile of a 10,000 ton freighter/oil tanker, with concealed gun turrets below main deck level....
User avatar
Gary
Senior Member
Posts: 706
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:37 pm
Location: Northumberland

Post by Gary »

Believe it or not but HMS Cornwall was temporarliy immobilised in the battle because a 5.9 inch shell found its way into her flower store.
Now this wasnt really a problem except for the fact that the main electrical joint was located there.
Cornwall was rendered powerless for a few minutes until the problem was sorted by the engineers.
There was relief aboard Cornwall when power was restored and the 8 inchers roared to life and sent a salvo soaring towards the German raider.

I agree that even 2 Hilfskruezers are not a match for a CA.


HMS Cornwall
God created the world in 6 days.........and on the 7th day he built the Scharnhorst
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF »

Gary wrote:Believe it or not but HMS Cornwall was temporarliy immobilised in the battle because a 5.9 inch shell found its way into her flower store.
Now this wasnt really a problem except for the fact that the main electrical joint was located there.
Cornwall was rendered powerless for a few minutes until the problem was sorted by the engineers.
There was relief aboard Cornwall when power was restored and the 8 inchers roared to life and sent a salvo soaring towards the German raider.



HMS Cornwall
According to Brennecke in his book ''Ghost Cruiser HK33'' the hit disabled the Cornwalls' steering gear rather than a power failure. One German survivor noticed evidence of a small fire in Cornwalls' main superstructure where cabling had burned, and Captain Mainwaring of Cornwall later confirmed this second hit. But Cornwall was never in any real danger, unlike Pinguin, which still had mines on board and it was these that finished the German ship - detonated by a British shell.
As an aside the Pinguins' mines nearly blew up the ship in October 1940, when a shell from the merchant ship Benarty penetrated the mine hold - however the Benartys' gunner had forgotten to insert the fuse.... if it had exploded, it would have been an even more dramatic turnabout than Stephen Hopkins sinking Stier, as Pinguin had some 300 of these mines on board....
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: HK Pinguin + HK Atlantis vs. HMS Cornwall

Post by RF »

This thread has been dead for some time and I thought that rather than simply lose the contributions already made, it might be an interesting idea to explore the question of the interception of Pinguin by Cornwall from another angle. Bearing in mind the fate of Sydney when she encountered Kormoran, what would have happened if Pinguin had not opened fire when she did, but held fire until Cornwall had come in much closer?

Or alternatively, if Cornwall had not been suspicious, and Kruder had made a request to the cruiser for the services of the ships doctor, to bring Cornwall in to point blank range....

We know a hilfskreuzer, in the right circumstances, could sink a light cruiser. But could it sink a heavy cruiser in those circumstances?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3822
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: HK Pinguin + HK Atlantis vs. HMS Cornwall

Post by lwd »

If she's got torpedo tubes she has a chance. It might take more than one torpedo to do it but if the raider can launch them at close range before being engaged she has a chance. If the cruiser is suspicious however the probability is low.
Barry
Junior Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:38 pm

Re: HK Pinguin + HK Atlantis vs. HMS Cornwall

Post by Barry »

just read your interesting question on the above scenario. i have just finished reading ;sydney;cipher and search. about the battle between hmas .sydney and hsk kormaron in november 1941 in the indian ocean.having watced a c g film on u tube of the battle it seems to me that the sydney was un lucky in that the kormaron was well aware of who the sydney was.. but sydney had no idea of who she was closing with. so i would say if there were a confrontation between pinguin.atlantis.and cornwall i would say that cornwall would take a bit of a battering if not actualy being sunk!!the advantage would always be with the raider.incidently i don,t know if anyone else knows but as a matter of interest hmas sydney was found on march 16th 2008 just 12 miles from where the kormaron went down.sydney was lost with all hands and for 60yrs no one knew what happened to her. if anyone wants to read about her loss and that of the kormaron may i reccomend the above book by cpt.peter hore.thanks for reading my rambling but as a x raf wallah i must admit a sneaking affection for the german navy they built some tremendous ships.!!!! :lol:
Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: HK Pinguin + HK Atlantis vs. HMS Cornwall

Post by Bgile »

I agree that Cumberland could have met the same fate as Sydney under the same circumstances, although Cumberland is quite a bit larger, so presumably it would take more hits to completely wreck her. It would depend on torpedo hits and whether any of her main armament was intact after the initial surprise. Sydney had one turret left and that needed only a few hits to seal Kormoran's fate.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: HK Pinguin + HK Atlantis vs. HMS Cornwall

Post by RF »

I fully agree with this post bgile, another factor often completely overlooked is that Kormoran was loaded with over 300 mines during the action with Sydney. One shell from Sydney hitting the mine rooms would have blown Kormoran out of the water and almost certainly have saved the Sydney.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: HK Pinguin + HK Atlantis vs. HMS Cornwall

Post by RF »

Barry wrote: it seems to me that the sydney was un lucky in that the kormaron was well aware of who the sydney was.. but sydney had no idea of who she was closing with. so i would say if there were a confrontation between pinguin.atlantis.and cornwall i would say that cornwall would take a bit of a battering if not actualy being sunk!!the advantage would always be with the raider.
I don't think so. Read my posts above.

The hilfskreuzer have no advantage in any department over a county class cruiser, not even in torpedo armament, not that the cruiser is going to need torpedoes against a hilfskreuzer.....

Two merchantmen sailing in company is going to arouse the suspicions of a warship. I can't see Cornwall getting in close to either Pinguin or Atlantis.

As I have said in another thread, I think Sydney was lost because her captain was fooled by the German disguise, until it was too late. Even then the German raider was still lost to a 6 inch gun cruiser. An 8 inch gun cruiser is far more difficult for a hilfskreuzer to despatch - not impossible, but really stretching it.


Thinking of hilfskreuzer/County Class cruiser confrontations, the only realistic chance of a German victory in open battle would be a night action involving the Michel, where the torpedo boat Esau gets in two torpedo hits, but even here the strategy is so high risk I can't see von Ruckteschell even thinking of trying it.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Post Reply