Twins v Warspite & Valiant

[RNfanDan]

Prince of Wales, although somewhat lucky not to have suffered even further damage (see Garzke & Dulin analysis), was dealt a "blow to the head" that effectively ended its ability to carry out the battle.

This isn't correct. POW under the orders of its XO was able to disengage from the battle, and was later in a condition where that battle could be recommenced.

So to repeat my original point, armor is over-rated when it comes to defeating an enemy. Not SINK, but DEFEAT.
Thank you for confirming this.

I think this is a rather arrogant and intemperent point. It is also inaccurate and out of context to the position that Bismarck and Scharnhorst respectively were in.

No arrogance is intended, sir, and if that is your impression, I apologize. However, as far as the examples I cited repeatedly, unless I am mistaken that Bismarck's heavy armor citadel WAS successful in excluding both Rodney's and KGV's main-armament shells, even long after the battleship was rendered incapable of further battle, then my statement surely bears merit. In fact, it is EXACTLY why I stated my opinion about the value of even the best defensive armor, in the first place. A ship destroyed by such pounding yet still afloat is, nonetheless, FINISHED.

As far as Prince of Wales' damage is concerned (and I welcome correction on this point), she WAS fortunate in the incident to have received penetrating enemy shellfire which failed to detonate after reaching points well-behind her armor protection. She was driven out of the fight by hits having nothing to do with the penetration of that armor citadel, regardless of her later ability to commence battle.

Nothing I have asserted re: defensive armor determines the victor, appears invalid. Again, a ship does not have to be sunk, to be defeated in battle. My apologies if this hasn't been made clear by this late moment...

Respectfully,
Dan

[RF]

The inspection of the citidel of Bismarck by the Ballard expedition did show rents, holes and blast/scorch marks to the front of the citidel by one of the early hits by Rodney. The experts viewing this evidence stated that this hit would have caused casualties in three figures, highly likely to include senior officers, possibly Lutjens hinself.
The implication, coming from the timing of the hit, is that it could have influenced the course of the battle by early degredation of fire control and command function.

There was also evidence of a further hit from Rodney blasting a hole through the main deck penetrating the horizontal armour.

[Dave Saxton]

I assume your refering to the conning tower as the citadel?

There was also evidence of a further hit from Rodney blasting a hole through the main deck penetrating the horizontal armour

.

I thought nobody has ever entered the wreck?

[Matrose71]

It was indeed the conning tower not the the main belt with the slopes behind.

There was also evidence of a further hit from Rodney blasting a hole through the main deck penetrating the horizontal armour

Also I was confronted with this possible/claim hit in an other forum, which claimed that the shell was gone in to a boiler room at 9.30am.
I have also asked for a backup document or source to this hit, I have got no answer.
To me it is rather impossible from the range that any hit had striked the main armour deck, perhaps wishful thinking but not possible from physiks.

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
Many thanks once again for all your input.
I'm afraid my lack of knowledge on armour v shells means that I cannot really dispute any of your theories, but I regret that I am still puzzled.
It would seem that after many years of navies designing ships with more powerful guns to defeat heavier armour and vice versa that the armour has won for in my inexpert eyes it would appear that no shell fired from normal battle ranges will penetrate an armoured belt, therefore with the possible exception of the 'super battleships there was no point in having anything bigger than 11" guns as they will apparently do just as much damage to the less protected parts as 14/15/16".
I have to say that in my humble opinion (which is probably quite wrong!) that any hit from a 14" shell is going to hurt, even on a ship like Scharnhorst, so a 15" shell from a QE is likely to hurt even more. Again, I don't want to put words into anyones mouth, but from what I have assumed (again probably wrongly) it seems that in a straight fight one to one DoY would have had a job to sink Scharnhorst and might have ended up losing.
I still think the two QE's would have battered the twins to bits even if they did not sink them, particularly as Warspite and Valiant were supposed to be two of the best, fastest shooting ships in the RN.
Anyway, this begs another question, was German armour that much better than the British, if so would Sharnhorst's 11" have penetrated DoY's main belt ?

[paulcadogan]

With regards to penetrating hits to Scharnhorst at North Cape, here's a quote from Frtiz Otto Busch's "The Sinking of the Scharnhorst" - specifically describing the experience of men in the port IV 15 cm twin turret (disengaged at the time) who were paying attention to the info passed on by the turret Signals-Transmitter during the second assault by Duke of York:

When the Captain’s exhortation “Scharnhorst immer voran” reached them, they looked at each other and smiled. The knew that every section of the crew was doing its utmost to honour their ship’s motto. But the smiles left their faces when within a few seconds the ship was struck with unprecedented force and began to tremble violently along her entire length. The emergency lamps fell from their mountings; the men set to and replaced them as further heavy explosions occurred. They looked at the Signals-Transmitter questioningly. He shook his head:

“Nothing’s come through so far.”

“That was a torpedo hit,” said Chief Petty Officer Moritz, the Chief Gunner. “It couldn’t have been anything else.”

They fell silent. At length the Signals-Transmitter had another bulletin:

“B-turret to damage control party: Order to flood! Magazine chamber B-turret to be flooded.”

The men listened aghast: was B-turret also out of action now? A-turret had remained jammed since the first encounter with the British battleship. Must B go too…? But then they heard B-turret firing again, distant and subdued, but clearly recognizable. Enveloped in smoke and fumes it was to keep firing to the last. The men relaxed again.

It was not until he was in captivity that Strater learned from Able Seaman Birkle, another survivor, what had actually happened. Birkle was a member of the gun crew of B-turret. A-turret had received a severe hit – the second of the day – in its magazine chamber. Violent explosions had followed, the smoke of which completely enveloped B and red hot splinters had penetrated the bulkheads protecting the magazines. The Chief Gunner took the immediate and reasonable precautions of having the magazines flooded. It had, however, proved possible to pump them out again a quarter of an hour later.

So...this suggests that a 14-inch shell penetrated Scharhorst's magazines, and were it not for the quick action of the crew, (and maybe the stability of her propellant charges) it is conceivable that she might have gone up like Roma. Or is the survivor testimony to be dismissed because the shell penetration was theoretically impossible?

[Matrose71]

@ paulcadogan

So...this suggests that a 14-inch shell penetrated Scharhorst's magazines, and were it not for the quick action of the crew, (and maybe the stability of her propellant charges) it is conceivable that she might have gone up like Roma. Or is the survivor testimony to be dismissed because the shell penetration was theoretically impossible?

Sorry I don't think and it is to my opinion impossible that a shell has directly hit SH magazines

The first Duke of York hit knocked out Anton. It is not known for sure if it was a barbet hit or a hit directly to the turret. However the battle range was no more than 11,000 meters. The three or four hits during the next 90 minutes were not as serious.

As Dave Saxton has correctly stated, turret Anton or the the barbet of turret Anton was hit and was knocked out with the first Salvo of DoY.
Also I know that the magazines of turret Anton and Berta were flowded after this hit.
It is possible that shell or amour fractions and pieces of this hit against the barbett or the turrent are reaching the magazin through the shell elevators.
But I have real doubts that a 14 inch shell of DoY reached SH magazines in condition fit to burst and was exploding at or near the magazin.

[Dave Saxton]

It’s important to correlate the hits and damage to the time line. For survivors the time line and events are usually compressed and sometimes out of order. The final battle lasted from 10 minutes to five in the evening to almost 8:00 pm. The final battle can be divided up into three phases.

First was the stern chase lasting from 10 minutes to five to 24 minutes past six in the evening. This phase ended when the Duke of York ceased fire because its radar could not spot of fall shot. The battle ranges began at about 11,000 meters and ended at 19,500 meters.

Adm Fraser called off the chase and it appeared that Scharnhorst had got away. Then between 6:30 and 7:45 the Scharnhorst lost speed and the British destroyers moved in.

The next phase of the final battle was from about 6:50 to 7:10. The British expended 55 torpedoes during this sub-action and the sinking, of which 11 are confirmed to hit.

As Scharnhorst was brought to standstill by multiple torpedo hits, Duke of York and Jamaica moved in close to point blank range and reopened fire. It was during this phase that Bruno was hit the second time. It had to be abandoned because excessive smoke according to the reports.

When the wreck was discovered it was found that the forecastle was severed from the main hull aft of B turret. This severe damage is attributed to multiple torpedo hits and not necessarly a magazine explosion though. This was certainly the damage that caused the sudden sinking and occured at the time of the final torpedo strike.

[Dave Saxton]

Anyway, this begs another question, was German armour that much better than the British, if so would Scharnhorst's 11" have penetrated DoY's main belt ?

It would seem that after many years of navies designing ships with more powerful guns to defeat heavier armour and vice versa that the armour has won for in my inexpert eyes it would appear that no shell fired from normal battle ranges will penetrate an armoured belt, therefore with the possible exception of the 'super battleships there was no point in having anything bigger than 11" guns as they will apparently do just as much damage to the less protected parts as 14/15/16".

Paul, the answer to these questions depends a great deal on the battle range. Battleships can not be protected against all shells at all ranges. Therefore the vital compartments, and usually the ships main armament, is protected against a certain gun (usually the ships own, but not in the case of SH) at a range of battle ranges. For example, German battleships of WWII were designed to provide vitals protection from 20,000 meters (~22,000 yards) battle range to 30,000 meters (~33,000 yards) battle range. One has to consider at what ranges hits were scored when studying the implications of historical accounts. During North Cape all the fighting was done at less than 20,000 meters battle range.

The German armour scheme consisted of an armoured deck situated three deck levels deep in the hull or only 1 meter above the waterline. The outboard portion of the main armoured deck slopes down ward to meet the lower edge of the main belt. See:
http://www.kbismarck.com/proteccioni.html


This gives the German battleships a tremendous armour advantage in battle of less than 20,000 meters battle range. Any shells fired at these short ranges are most unlikely to ever reach the ships vitals such as a magazine or boiler room- intact. Even if they can defeat the main belt they must still defeat the scarps or the flat sections of the main armoured deck -at a very unfavourable angle. Some experts have calculated that this was impossible even for 16” shells. Furthermore, at these relatively short battle ranges the shells will not be able to reach the main armoured deck before they burst because of the flat trajectories and the distance between the upper armoured deck and the main deck.

This immunity of vital compartments deep within the hull to heavy shell hits at less than 22,000 yards did not extend to the turrets and barbets however. These units were still vulnerable at shorter ranges. One must take the IZ of the turrets and barbets and the battle range into account when analysing such hits in the cases of Bismarck and Scharnhorst because the battles were fought at relatively short range.

Scharnhorst's 11" could penetrate Duke of York's main belt inside of 15,000 yards battle range depending on target angle. It all depends on the range.

[Dave Saxton]

therefore with the possible exception of the 'super battleships there was no point in having anything bigger than 11" guns as they will apparently do just as much damage to the less protected parts as 14/15/16".

Given the armour of a modern battleship in some combat scenarios this is true. However, let's compare the German 15" vs the 11". The Duke of York's main belt can not be penetrated (given a broadsides on target angle) by the 11" beyond about 15,000 yards. However, the Tirpitz's 15" could penetrate Duke of York's belt all the way out to 22k. Big difference there. So there was an advantage to mounting larger guns, given the combat situation.

[alecsandros]

@Dave
Another aspect is destructive potential of the shell.
It's one thing to have a 11" exploding in the machinery spaces (300kg shell with 6.6kg of explosive charge), and a completely different story having a 15" there (800kg shell with 20kg explosive charge)

[Dave Saxton]

@Dave
Another aspect is destructive potential of the shell.
It's one thing to have a 11" exploding in the machinery spaces (300kg shell with 6.6kg of explosive charge), and a completely different story having a 15" there (800kg shell with 20kg explosive charge)

This concept is evidence against a 14" shell bursting in a boiler room on SH as well. The damage would likely be far greater than indicated by SH loosing speed initially to 22 knots, but then Koenig reporting that he can probably get the speed back, even after the first torpedo hits.

[alecsandros]

@Dave
Another aspect is destructive potential of the shell.
It's one thing to have a 11" exploding in the machinery spaces (300kg shell with 6.6kg of explosive charge), and a completely different story having a 15" there (800kg shell with 20kg explosive charge)

This concept is evidence against a 14" shell bursting in a boiler room on SH as well. The damage would likely be far greater than indicated by SH loosing speed initially to 22 knots, but then Koenig reporting that he can probably get the speed back, even after the first torpedo hits.

Ah, yes that's right, I haven't thought about that...

Indeed, the 14" shells carried a 23kg explosive charge.... actualy larger than the German 15"...

What is possible however, is that some shell fragment or some metal plug got into the aft turbine station and caused some damage.

The possible trajectory could be an oblique one, with the 14" shell coming through the upper armor belt (50mm), and then traveling towards the MAD (80mm).
Intact perforation is highly unlikely, but a partial penetration, and/or an explosion against the panzer deck would be possible...

And another possibility would be that Scharnhosrts's turbines had trouble, as so many times before...

[MikeBrough]

@Dave
Another aspect is destructive potential of the shell.
It's one thing to have a 11" exploding in the machinery spaces (300kg shell with 6.6kg of explosive charge), and a completely different story having a 15" there (800kg shell with 20kg explosive charge)

This concept is evidence against a 14" shell bursting in a boiler room on SH as well. The damage would likely be far greater than indicated by SH loosing speed initially to 22 knots, but then Koenig reporting that he can probably get the speed back, even after the first torpedo hits.

What was the 14" dud rate?

[paul.mercer]

Dave, thanks for your valuable input, I know we have gone a bit off track on this as the original question was the Twins v the two QE's (which I still think the QE's would have won even if they did not sink them)
The various books i have read re the loss of the Scharnhorst state that there was a massive explosion underwater just after she sank, presumably this was one or both of the forward magazines which blew the bow off, the question is, was it torpedoes or was it the effect of the original 14" hit which mde them order the flooding of the magazine, in other words, maybe the flooding did not not work properly or the magazines were emptied too soon?
If one studies the pictures of Barham one can see that she was right over on her side and about to capsize before she blew up, so presumably the water entering her was not sufficient to stop the magazine from exploding.