Re: Bismarck vs. Iowa
Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:54 pm
Hi, thanks for the welcome.
A lot of what you said I agree with. I was also thinking Tirpitz would have a higher rate of fire, probably in the order of 3 salvos for every 2 by Iowa and that that could play a major role in the outcome. I was also thinking that even if Tirpitz couldn't cleanly penetrate an Iowa turret face the impact energy alone would put it out of action pretty comprehensively. When the South Dakota's barbette took a partial hit at it's base by a 14 inch shell in the Pacific it was enough to hinder the above turret for some time. A direct face hit would disable an Iowa turret. So even though Iowa could destroy Tirpitz's armament Tirpitz could still also knock out Iowa's. What's more it only has to get rid of 3 turrets not 4.
I didn't know Iowa's magazines were very deep in the ship, I thought like South Dakota's they could be accesed through the main belt. Hmmm, it does make it harder to get a kill.
But it would be an unbelievable pounding match. Both ships would be fighting for their lives. Every man in both crews would know they were in a battle with an enemy more than capable of killing them. The reputation of Tirpitz would be there because of Bismarck's exploits while the Germans would be acutely aware of the massive American 16 inch guns. The sweating going on on both ships would be serious. The concentration levels, attention to every detail, quest for more speed in everything attempted would be total. in some ways it would be almost like a Napoleonic naval struggle. Instead of running out the guns it would be the fire control director stations, radar rooms and massive gun turrets full of men desperate not to make a mistake and preying for the accuracy of their gunfire. Down in the boiler rooms and magazines and in fact throughout the hull a thousand or more men would be constantly looking up every time the guns fired or the countdown was on to receive the enemie's shells. The stress would be on everyone's faces.
I'd sell my car for a ticket to getting a full multi angle view of that fight live!
Anyway, something I thought of yesterday after my post was underwater protection. Prince of Wales penetrated Bismarck's engine room and ultimately it had to be abandoned. I was thinking if a 16 inch 45 calibre made that hit it might not do any more damage. The fact it would be much heavier would be countered by it's lower velocity. But a 16 inch 50 calibre? It might punch into that room and keep on going. if so I wonder if there was another watertight room after that one or whether it would mean uncontrollable flooding into a much larger space. If so underwater hits could be potentially lethal for Tirpitz in such a fight. I don't know if Tirpitz could penetrate Iowa's ups but I've heard it wasn't so good as the American's hoped so maybe it would. Certainly as you said the bow could be flooded.
I agree Tirpitz upperworks would be demolished. 2700 pound shells would remove the superstructure and secondary turrets and destroy the main turrets. I wonder if complete explosions in Tirpitz turrets and barbettes would wreck the whole ship or whether the damage though terrible would be localised to that immediate area of the ship. If it had the capacity to wreck the whole ship then Tirpitz would be in a very dangerous position.
Personally having said that I think Tirpitz would win. The broader hull I think would help in absorbing punishment in general and the higher rate of fire would I think see Iowa getting hit more. Maybe a hit on Iowa's middle turret if the range closed would penetrate and knock out both forward turrets. We know from what happened with Bismarck that it doesn't seem to take all that much to disable turrets even if only temporarily.
I think the range between the two would close relentlessly as both sought more and more hits and Tirpitz would come out of it even maybe with just one turret still firing but that one turret hammering Iowa's belt at 8000 yards. I think it would be a knock down drag out and Tirpitz's scarp and faster fire would see it win.
A lot of what you said I agree with. I was also thinking Tirpitz would have a higher rate of fire, probably in the order of 3 salvos for every 2 by Iowa and that that could play a major role in the outcome. I was also thinking that even if Tirpitz couldn't cleanly penetrate an Iowa turret face the impact energy alone would put it out of action pretty comprehensively. When the South Dakota's barbette took a partial hit at it's base by a 14 inch shell in the Pacific it was enough to hinder the above turret for some time. A direct face hit would disable an Iowa turret. So even though Iowa could destroy Tirpitz's armament Tirpitz could still also knock out Iowa's. What's more it only has to get rid of 3 turrets not 4.
I didn't know Iowa's magazines were very deep in the ship, I thought like South Dakota's they could be accesed through the main belt. Hmmm, it does make it harder to get a kill.
But it would be an unbelievable pounding match. Both ships would be fighting for their lives. Every man in both crews would know they were in a battle with an enemy more than capable of killing them. The reputation of Tirpitz would be there because of Bismarck's exploits while the Germans would be acutely aware of the massive American 16 inch guns. The sweating going on on both ships would be serious. The concentration levels, attention to every detail, quest for more speed in everything attempted would be total. in some ways it would be almost like a Napoleonic naval struggle. Instead of running out the guns it would be the fire control director stations, radar rooms and massive gun turrets full of men desperate not to make a mistake and preying for the accuracy of their gunfire. Down in the boiler rooms and magazines and in fact throughout the hull a thousand or more men would be constantly looking up every time the guns fired or the countdown was on to receive the enemie's shells. The stress would be on everyone's faces.
I'd sell my car for a ticket to getting a full multi angle view of that fight live!
Anyway, something I thought of yesterday after my post was underwater protection. Prince of Wales penetrated Bismarck's engine room and ultimately it had to be abandoned. I was thinking if a 16 inch 45 calibre made that hit it might not do any more damage. The fact it would be much heavier would be countered by it's lower velocity. But a 16 inch 50 calibre? It might punch into that room and keep on going. if so I wonder if there was another watertight room after that one or whether it would mean uncontrollable flooding into a much larger space. If so underwater hits could be potentially lethal for Tirpitz in such a fight. I don't know if Tirpitz could penetrate Iowa's ups but I've heard it wasn't so good as the American's hoped so maybe it would. Certainly as you said the bow could be flooded.
I agree Tirpitz upperworks would be demolished. 2700 pound shells would remove the superstructure and secondary turrets and destroy the main turrets. I wonder if complete explosions in Tirpitz turrets and barbettes would wreck the whole ship or whether the damage though terrible would be localised to that immediate area of the ship. If it had the capacity to wreck the whole ship then Tirpitz would be in a very dangerous position.
Personally having said that I think Tirpitz would win. The broader hull I think would help in absorbing punishment in general and the higher rate of fire would I think see Iowa getting hit more. Maybe a hit on Iowa's middle turret if the range closed would penetrate and knock out both forward turrets. We know from what happened with Bismarck that it doesn't seem to take all that much to disable turrets even if only temporarily.
I think the range between the two would close relentlessly as both sought more and more hits and Tirpitz would come out of it even maybe with just one turret still firing but that one turret hammering Iowa's belt at 8000 yards. I think it would be a knock down drag out and Tirpitz's scarp and faster fire would see it win.