Tirpitz and Bismarck

[Karl Heidenreich]

I´ve been rethinking this scenario and there are some improvements to be done. To have two German squadrons in this scenario (Bismarck+PE and Tirpitz + Hip) then it has to occur at mid - late July. By then the PoW must be 100% operational, a thing that must weight in Denmarck Straits.
So, editing a little bit:
1. Bismarck + PE steamed from Gotenhafen, via Great Belt, to Norway. Lutjens commands at the Bismarck. The Squadron is sighted by the Swedish and norwegian resistance. They alert the British. Norfolk and Suffolk go to patrol at the Straits, Hood + PoW steam to Iceland, the KGV + Repulse stay at Scapa FLow.
2. In full coordination the Tirpitz + Hipper had cross the Kiel Canal and steamed at Dusk the same evening the Bismarck and PE are at the Norwegian Fiord.
3. The British air raid find the fiord empty the following morning. Home Fleet began to deploy.
4. Tirpitz + Hipper follow Bismarck + PE some sixty to eighty miles behind: close enough to bring support in case of need but far enough for, in case of being detected, made the enemy thought they are a sole Squadron.
5. Norfolk and Suffolk sighted Bismarck + PE. At dawn the following day Hood + PoW intercept. As in History: Hood is blown but this time PoW gives a hard fight. In addtidion to the already known hits the PoW strikes Bismarck at the Anton turret, blowing her, and damaging a Fire Control Dome and the funnel. The Bismarck list heavy to port and fights several fires. But the PoW 4 gun bow turret jammed. The Bismarck puts her hit at the PoW´s bridge while PE is bussy trying to find a firing solution to spit a couple of torpedoes at her. The Norfolk and Suffolk are ordered to engage to save the British capital ship. And then Suffolk blows sky high as Tirpitz, coming out of the midst, engages. The Hipper runs behind the Norfolk. PE finally gets a firing solution and the PoW stops cold and began to list. The Bismarck gives the PoW´s crew chance to abandon her. Finally the British crew scuttles the doomed ship.
6. Lutjens is aware that Bismarck has heavy damage so he transfer flag to Tirpitz. The Bismarck steams north, via Denmarck Straits, back home. Nobody is going to follow her. The Tirpitz (without damage), the PE (lightly damaged) and the Hipper steam south, southeast without the cruisers shadowing.
7. KGV + Repulse + Victorious scrambles from Scapa FLow. The Rodney is ordered to break convoy escort and join. H-Force is ordered to get out Gibraltar and cover the French waters.
8. In the middle of the night the Ark Royal is suddenly attacked: Schanhorst + Gniesenau had left French port the previous evening and had intercept Force H. When they are going to finish the Carrier the Renown gets into the fight and damages the Schanhorst. The German units retreat. The British BC has to cover the battered Ark Royal until help came to transfer the crew before she sinks.
9. In view that Schanhorst + Gniesenau are on the loose Tovey detaches the Repulse from his fleet to block any sudden reinforcement of the Tirpitz´ Squadron.
10. Renown re-joins the hunt for the Twins after Ark Royal crew is safe aboard Shefield and a couple of destroyers. But the Twins are far enough.
11. Tirpitz + 2 cruisers are sighted by a Catalina. The British change their course in order to intercept. The Swordfish planes of Victorious attack the Germans. This time, with AA support of three ships, the British attack failed completely and some of the aircraft are shot down.
12. The German Squadron is intercepted by the KGV + Rodney + a couple of cruisers. Schanhorst, Gniesinau, Repulse and Renown are too far away to matter.
Now, it´s up to them.
P.S. HMS Ramillies is a couple of hours from the scene.

[RF]

Hello all,
There have been frequent discussions on the relative merits of including the incompletely-worked up and equipped Tirpitz with Bismarck during operation Rheinubung. Raeder's decision not to include her in the sortie is often contrasted with Britain's decision to use the PoW, which was similarly "un-ready" as Tirpitz was.

My question is different. Suppose Tirpitz and Bismarck did sortie together, but after Tirpitz and Bismarck had worked up together in the Baltic during the spring and summer of 1941. Suppose Raeder planned for an Atlantic operation for the two ships (and maybe Scharnhorst and Gneisenau?) for September 1941. What then?

George G.

There is another aspect to this which by June 1941 the British were very well aware of.
If Bismarck and Tirpitz come out together for a lengthy cruise, they will need a considerable supply train. If they came out in September 1941 I think that Churchill would have ordered cruisers to seek out the supply ships and sink them (as indeed many were sunk in June 1941 from using enigma intercepts).
If other German ships - Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Scheer, Prinz Eugen also come out the greater the supply need for the German Fleet commander. Even with POW now fully worked up and working with KGV it would be difficult for the British to match the Gemans in one place.
No, I think the temptation to use indirect means to reduce the German threat would be used. The British might even have staged the attack on the drydock in St. Nazaire six months earlier than they actually did.

Another factor is that by September compared to May the US atitude is much more hostile to the Germans, with US warships starting to get involved in convoy escorts. Churchill would want to lure the German Fleet commander into attacking American warships, to get the US Congress to vote to declare war on Germany. And of course if that did happen then US battleships would be hunting the Germans.... I guess that Raeder would then have to back off and withdraw the ships.

If the US declared war on Germany as a result of Bismarck etc. firing on/sinking US ships and all the supply ships were sunk at more or less the same time, the German operation could turn into a fiasco. What if a major German ship ran very short of fuel and couldn't get home at normal speed? Is it sacrificed to save the rest?

[Karl Heidenreich]

Every scenario that goes with Bismarck + something only takes into account a mission similar to that of the original Rheinubung.
What if the KM High Command had something new in mind: a trap.
They wait until Tirpitz is ready and send it with Hipper trailing Bismarck + PE as stated before in this thread.
On the other hand the Twins steam from France.
It´s the same scenario as before but with a different idea: no long raid in the Atlantic, just try to bring the Home Fleet out, separated in groups trying to cover the exits and destroying it in parts:

But here is the most important element, not the number of ships but the character of the commander: instead of Lutjens we have Marschall.

At DS the Bismarck + PE find Hood + PoW. When Hood is blown the Bismarck and PE engage PoW in order to sink her. Norfolk + Suffolk try to help but are stopped cold by the sudden appearence of Tirpitz + Hipper.
The Force from Gibraltar is besieged by the Twins while the Germans from the North come in assistance and the British gather KGV, Repulse and Rodney to try to run south and rendevouz with Ark Royal and Renown.
What comes would have been the greatest naval encounter of WWII in the Atlantic without a German Admiral sending 30 minute speeches by radio.

[RF]

If the British Mediterranean Fleet comes out into the Atlantic, I suppose the Regia Marina could be persuaded to send Vittorio Veneto and Littorio shooting their way past Gibraltar with cruisers to reinforce the Germans....

[longreach]

hi karl,the idea of the bismarck and tirpitz+prinz eugen together in the operation you ask about,(with everything else staying the same).then i think the british would have had a heart-attack.for a start the BS + TP were more than a match for hood +PoW,thier greater range,higher ROC,better speed AND having wind and sea advatage(ie weather and seas from astern)unlike the Brits who had the weather and seas against them(making them unstable platforms)as opposed to the germans who had lovely stable gun platforms.this tactical advatage alone would be enough to cost the Brits Both Hood and PoW.(the german doctrine of concertrated firepower,ie all ships firing on one target),I dont think any ship could last very long,and that inclueds....IOWA class or yamoto class,,one of the things i've noticed is the fact that the Bismarck class battleships used 40% of thier displacement over to armour,no other battleship of WW2 gave over such a high percentage to thier amour,and the sighting systems of the german ships was better than the british,(if more fragile).had BS+TP did sink the Hood + PoW,then turned on the cruisers,(use Prinz Eugen to keep the cruisers engaged until Hood + PoW are destroyed)then the british navy has to try and round up enough heavy units(battleships,battlecruisers)to engage and destroy the german ships and given need to protect the convoy system the british navy would have been HARD pressed to intercept the germans once they got out into the north atlantic,and the Americans are not in the war at that time,,,IF the germans do make it out into the atlantic,and the Americans did actively hunt the BS + TP + PE.they would not be able to engage the german ships on a even terms.the Bismarck,,,Tirpitz,outclassed any US battleship at that time.unless the allies could some how catch the germans between two fleets,,,,then they win (german ships sunk)But at what cost??????

[lwd]

...,IF the germans do make it out into the atlantic,and the Americans did actively hunt the BS + TP + PE.they would not be able to engage the german ships on a even terms.the Bismarck,,,Tirpitz,outclassed any US battleship at that time....

At what time? Tirpitz becomes operational in early 42 so maybe 2 months before South Dakota. Not much of an edge. I agree it wouldn't be even terms but not the same way you invision. If the US his hunting this trio expect at least 1 CV with the hunters and a bunch of curisers and DD's. The German BBs are certainly tougher than Fuso but 1 US DD is credited with her sinking and there would be a lot more than one around. The US or for that matter the British would also not have to sink the Germans in the first engement merely damage them enough for a mission kill and hope for the sinking when they try to return to port.