Graf Zeppelin vs HMS Ark Royal and Victorious
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Karl Heidenreich
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Underestimation is the first step to be defeated. In this case regarding the Germans to be uncapable to develop a new aircraft for their Aircraft Carrier or to modify an existing one is a mistake. The Germans were the only ones capable to develop a fully operational jet fighter during wartime years as to be the only ones to develop an operational missile program.
On the other hand there are examples of multirole aircraft that were pretty succesfull. Nowadays the US and GB had their F-35 joint strike fighter, which will be for in service in the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps of both countries. Another great example is the Mitsubishi Zero, which was designed for Aircraft Carriers but serve as well for the Air Corps:
Zero´s by airbase name
Chitose:-Unit that operated from Chitose, in metropolitan areas of Wake Island, Kwajalein (South Pacific Mandate), and Salomon Islands, with A6M2, A6M3 and A6M5 Zero fighters. Later merged with 653° Air Corps
Genzan:-Famous unit known as "the Protector of Chosen", for its principal airbase; they operated from Genzan, Saigon (French Indochina, Malaca, Rabaul base and Admiralty Islands, using A6M2 and A6M3 along G4M Bombers; on return to main base they acted as operational trainers with A6M5b, A6M5-K and served how interceptor with J2M3, N1K2 and A6M5c against Soviet and Americans
Kanoya:-Mixed group which operated with Reisen and G4M "Betty", from Kanoya, Kagoshima, Kyushu, Malaysia and returned to metropolitan area equipped with A6M5c
Konoike:-Operative Trainer Unit, equipped with A6M2, A6M3 and A6M5a, later enter in Kamikaze operations with A6M2 and A6M5
Oita:-Operative Trainer Unit as previous section, form part of Second striking line in front, with Base in Oita and Kyushu, with A6M5
Ominato:-mixed unit with A6M3 and A6M5, along B5N2 "Kate and E13A1 "Jake", with bases in Ominato, Aomori and Honshu
Ohmura:-At first was a Combat unit, later converted to an Operative Trainer Unit, including instructor Saburo Sakai. Its bases were Ohmura (Sasebo), Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Kyushu. Later converted to an interceptor unit with A6M5c
Saeki:-Unit began with E13A1 "Jake", later equipped with A6M5 and A6M5c
Tainan:-The most famous air corps of the Japanese Navy Air Force, with many principal Air aces; Operated from Tainan, Rabaul (where they acquired their fame and triumphs), overPhilippines, Taihoku, Dutch Indies, Lae, New Guinea, Admiralty Islands and finally as interceptors over mainland Japan against USAAF. Equipped with A6M2, A6M3, A6M5 and A6M5c
Takao:-Mixed unit equipped C5M2 "Babs", G3M bomber and A6M2, later returned to base in Takao with A6M3 and A6M5, to convert to interceptors with A6M5c
Toko:-Mixed unit with H6K4 "Mavis", E13A1 "Jake" and A6M2 later converted to interceptor with A6M5c
Tokushima:-Operative Trainer Unit, with bases in Tokushima, Shikoku and Okinawa, equipped with A6M2, A6M2-K and A6M5
Tsukuba:-Operative Trainer Unit, with bases in Tsukuba, Ibaraki and Honshu with A6M2 and A6M2-K. In 1945 was equipped with A6M5c as part of Metropolitan defense
Yabate:-Operative Trainer Unit, with bases in Yabate, Honshu and Metropolitan area; latterly in process of converting to interceptors with A6M6c
Yokosuka:-Additionally of Naval Air Technical Institute, Flight Test Department and Naval administrative service, this unit was known for its principal base. They operated also from Kanagawa and Honshu; Hiroyoshi Nishisawa acted as an instructor in the detachment from December 1942 to January 1943. The unit was converted to interceptors equipped with A6M5c, A6M6c, J2M5 and N1K2-Ja in 1944-45
Mihoro:-Mixed unit equipped with G3M and G4M bombers along with A6M2. They operated from Mihoro, Okinawa, Hainan, and French Indochina, and participated in seeking and sinking of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse British vessels
Iwakuni:-Combat unit, which participated in metropolitan defense equipped with A6M5c
Naruo:-Combat Unit which acted in defense of Japan with A6M5c
Kokubu:-Interceptor unit equipped with A6M5c
Kagoshima:-Combat Unit with A6M5c
Atsugi:-one of most important bases, its unit participated in actions in overseas, returning as interceptors with A6M5c and A6M6c
Kanoya:-Another mixed unit equipped with G3M, G4M bombers and A6M2 fighters. They participated in Kamikaze operations with G4M equipped with Ohka glider bomb, and were interceptors equipped with A6M5c
Kasumigaura:-Operative Trainer Unit, equipped with A6M3 and A6M5. Later converted to interceptor with A6M5c
Yokohama:-Combat unit equipped with A6M2, along A6M2-N "Rufe" hydro fighters, later operated with A6M5c as interceptors in mainland Japan
Aomori:-Another combat unit, which returned to Japanese skies as interceptors with A6M5c and A6M6c
Hyakuri:-Operative Trainer Unit, later converted as interceptor with A6M5c
Tsuikui:-Operative Trainer Unit, later in process of conversion to interceptor with A6M6c
Otsu:-Combat unit with A6M2, A6M2-N "Rufe" and N1K1 "Rex" Hydrofighters. Later returned as interceptor with their hydrofighters and A6M5c from the Biwa Lake area
Returning to the thread the Germans were quite capable of developing a modified version of their Messerschmidt or, worse for the allies, a Focke Wulf.
On the other hand we can regard that the German pilots were among, if not the best, aces of WWII. Names as Eric Hartmann with his 360+ kills (7 times more than any US WWII ace) or Adolf Galland, Walter Nowotny and many others can certificed an unidisputed quality in air combat.
A German Aircraft Carrier, with German aircraft and German pilots stand their chance to face, and defeat, Ark Royal or any other foe in the early years of the war.
On the other hand there are examples of multirole aircraft that were pretty succesfull. Nowadays the US and GB had their F-35 joint strike fighter, which will be for in service in the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps of both countries. Another great example is the Mitsubishi Zero, which was designed for Aircraft Carriers but serve as well for the Air Corps:
Zero´s by airbase name
Chitose:-Unit that operated from Chitose, in metropolitan areas of Wake Island, Kwajalein (South Pacific Mandate), and Salomon Islands, with A6M2, A6M3 and A6M5 Zero fighters. Later merged with 653° Air Corps
Genzan:-Famous unit known as "the Protector of Chosen", for its principal airbase; they operated from Genzan, Saigon (French Indochina, Malaca, Rabaul base and Admiralty Islands, using A6M2 and A6M3 along G4M Bombers; on return to main base they acted as operational trainers with A6M5b, A6M5-K and served how interceptor with J2M3, N1K2 and A6M5c against Soviet and Americans
Kanoya:-Mixed group which operated with Reisen and G4M "Betty", from Kanoya, Kagoshima, Kyushu, Malaysia and returned to metropolitan area equipped with A6M5c
Konoike:-Operative Trainer Unit, equipped with A6M2, A6M3 and A6M5a, later enter in Kamikaze operations with A6M2 and A6M5
Oita:-Operative Trainer Unit as previous section, form part of Second striking line in front, with Base in Oita and Kyushu, with A6M5
Ominato:-mixed unit with A6M3 and A6M5, along B5N2 "Kate and E13A1 "Jake", with bases in Ominato, Aomori and Honshu
Ohmura:-At first was a Combat unit, later converted to an Operative Trainer Unit, including instructor Saburo Sakai. Its bases were Ohmura (Sasebo), Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Kyushu. Later converted to an interceptor unit with A6M5c
Saeki:-Unit began with E13A1 "Jake", later equipped with A6M5 and A6M5c
Tainan:-The most famous air corps of the Japanese Navy Air Force, with many principal Air aces; Operated from Tainan, Rabaul (where they acquired their fame and triumphs), overPhilippines, Taihoku, Dutch Indies, Lae, New Guinea, Admiralty Islands and finally as interceptors over mainland Japan against USAAF. Equipped with A6M2, A6M3, A6M5 and A6M5c
Takao:-Mixed unit equipped C5M2 "Babs", G3M bomber and A6M2, later returned to base in Takao with A6M3 and A6M5, to convert to interceptors with A6M5c
Toko:-Mixed unit with H6K4 "Mavis", E13A1 "Jake" and A6M2 later converted to interceptor with A6M5c
Tokushima:-Operative Trainer Unit, with bases in Tokushima, Shikoku and Okinawa, equipped with A6M2, A6M2-K and A6M5
Tsukuba:-Operative Trainer Unit, with bases in Tsukuba, Ibaraki and Honshu with A6M2 and A6M2-K. In 1945 was equipped with A6M5c as part of Metropolitan defense
Yabate:-Operative Trainer Unit, with bases in Yabate, Honshu and Metropolitan area; latterly in process of converting to interceptors with A6M6c
Yokosuka:-Additionally of Naval Air Technical Institute, Flight Test Department and Naval administrative service, this unit was known for its principal base. They operated also from Kanagawa and Honshu; Hiroyoshi Nishisawa acted as an instructor in the detachment from December 1942 to January 1943. The unit was converted to interceptors equipped with A6M5c, A6M6c, J2M5 and N1K2-Ja in 1944-45
Mihoro:-Mixed unit equipped with G3M and G4M bombers along with A6M2. They operated from Mihoro, Okinawa, Hainan, and French Indochina, and participated in seeking and sinking of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse British vessels
Iwakuni:-Combat unit, which participated in metropolitan defense equipped with A6M5c
Naruo:-Combat Unit which acted in defense of Japan with A6M5c
Kokubu:-Interceptor unit equipped with A6M5c
Kagoshima:-Combat Unit with A6M5c
Atsugi:-one of most important bases, its unit participated in actions in overseas, returning as interceptors with A6M5c and A6M6c
Kanoya:-Another mixed unit equipped with G3M, G4M bombers and A6M2 fighters. They participated in Kamikaze operations with G4M equipped with Ohka glider bomb, and were interceptors equipped with A6M5c
Kasumigaura:-Operative Trainer Unit, equipped with A6M3 and A6M5. Later converted to interceptor with A6M5c
Yokohama:-Combat unit equipped with A6M2, along A6M2-N "Rufe" hydro fighters, later operated with A6M5c as interceptors in mainland Japan
Aomori:-Another combat unit, which returned to Japanese skies as interceptors with A6M5c and A6M6c
Hyakuri:-Operative Trainer Unit, later converted as interceptor with A6M5c
Tsuikui:-Operative Trainer Unit, later in process of conversion to interceptor with A6M6c
Otsu:-Combat unit with A6M2, A6M2-N "Rufe" and N1K1 "Rex" Hydrofighters. Later returned as interceptor with their hydrofighters and A6M5c from the Biwa Lake area
Returning to the thread the Germans were quite capable of developing a modified version of their Messerschmidt or, worse for the allies, a Focke Wulf.
On the other hand we can regard that the German pilots were among, if not the best, aces of WWII. Names as Eric Hartmann with his 360+ kills (7 times more than any US WWII ace) or Adolf Galland, Walter Nowotny and many others can certificed an unidisputed quality in air combat.
A German Aircraft Carrier, with German aircraft and German pilots stand their chance to face, and defeat, Ark Royal or any other foe in the early years of the war.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill
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marcelo_malara
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To Derf:
In fact I made a mistake, the F-101 was the only fighter built by McDonnell for the USAF. The F-4 was originally built for the Navy, the USAF adopting it later. And the F-15 and the C-17 were designed after the merge of the company with Douglas.
To Karl:
This time I disagree with you. As you know, developing a new aircraft is a matter of years. Both the 262 and the A-4 programs needed a long time to mature, and in fact the 262, as advanced as it was, had many engine trouble, the blades of the turbines having a life of (I believe) 10 hours at most.
There are many examples of aircraft designed for carrier operation than met with success operating from land, the F-8, A-4 and F-4 come to my mind. Unfortunately the reverse is not true: none of the navalized planes met with great success. Simple put, aircraft doesn´t land in a carrier, they crash in a controlled fashion. It is not just strenghtening a landing gear, it is just a major redesign what is needed.
There aren´t also many examples of succesful multirole aircraft. Take for example the Tornado, designed as a multi-role aircraft from the begining. But when the British needed an interceptor/air superiority aircraft to replace the aging Lightning, they didn´t take the original version of the Tornado but developed a new version called Tornado ADV.
In the case of a carrier, the fighter, dive bomber and torpedo planes are mutually exclusive, neither can replace the other succesfully.
And finally it is the issue of the experience. It takes a long time to develop a succesfully carrier force, and I don´t really believe that at the begining of the war Germany was prepared to it.
In fact I made a mistake, the F-101 was the only fighter built by McDonnell for the USAF. The F-4 was originally built for the Navy, the USAF adopting it later. And the F-15 and the C-17 were designed after the merge of the company with Douglas.
To Karl:
This time I disagree with you. As you know, developing a new aircraft is a matter of years. Both the 262 and the A-4 programs needed a long time to mature, and in fact the 262, as advanced as it was, had many engine trouble, the blades of the turbines having a life of (I believe) 10 hours at most.
There are many examples of aircraft designed for carrier operation than met with success operating from land, the F-8, A-4 and F-4 come to my mind. Unfortunately the reverse is not true: none of the navalized planes met with great success. Simple put, aircraft doesn´t land in a carrier, they crash in a controlled fashion. It is not just strenghtening a landing gear, it is just a major redesign what is needed.
There aren´t also many examples of succesful multirole aircraft. Take for example the Tornado, designed as a multi-role aircraft from the begining. But when the British needed an interceptor/air superiority aircraft to replace the aging Lightning, they didn´t take the original version of the Tornado but developed a new version called Tornado ADV.
In the case of a carrier, the fighter, dive bomber and torpedo planes are mutually exclusive, neither can replace the other succesfully.
And finally it is the issue of the experience. It takes a long time to develop a succesfully carrier force, and I don´t really believe that at the begining of the war Germany was prepared to it.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Marcelo,
it´s good to discuss with you. I´m aware of the difficulties arraised with the developing of a naval air arm in a navy like KM. But these factors, and our perception of them come from what happened with the GZ. The problem here is that Raeder´s plan for the KM was to have her 100% operational by 1943-1944, not 1939-1940. By 1943 it´s quite likely that the KM had developed her Marine version of a Messerschmit or Focke Wulf and the aces to be could have choosen to be on board the GZ and sisters. By 1944 that would be an incredible weapon that could face, and defeat, the Arc Royal in a Midway-like battle. I don´t believe that a Neville Chamberlain´s goverment with a Financial Worried Admiralty would develop a marine plane that could outmanouver and outfought a Marine version of the BF or FW.
Very best regards to you.
it´s good to discuss with you. I´m aware of the difficulties arraised with the developing of a naval air arm in a navy like KM. But these factors, and our perception of them come from what happened with the GZ. The problem here is that Raeder´s plan for the KM was to have her 100% operational by 1943-1944, not 1939-1940. By 1943 it´s quite likely that the KM had developed her Marine version of a Messerschmit or Focke Wulf and the aces to be could have choosen to be on board the GZ and sisters. By 1944 that would be an incredible weapon that could face, and defeat, the Arc Royal in a Midway-like battle. I don´t believe that a Neville Chamberlain´s goverment with a Financial Worried Admiralty would develop a marine plane that could outmanouver and outfought a Marine version of the BF or FW.
Very best regards to you.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Sir Winston Churchill
Yes, the successor of the 109T was to be the Me 155. This was based on the 109G with a new wing, landing gear, etc.
A follow-up for the Stuka, though, that is harder to gauge. There was work done on an Fw 190 capable of handling a torpedo, and that offers some itneresting possiblities. Personally, I suspect a bomb-armed 190 would be more likely as torpedoes had already worked their way out of the GZ arsenal, and the engineering task of getting a satisfactory landing gear for our hypothetical Fw torpedo plane would not be easy.
A follow-up for the Stuka, though, that is harder to gauge. There was work done on an Fw 190 capable of handling a torpedo, and that offers some itneresting possiblities. Personally, I suspect a bomb-armed 190 would be more likely as torpedoes had already worked their way out of the GZ arsenal, and the engineering task of getting a satisfactory landing gear for our hypothetical Fw torpedo plane would not be easy.
hey....
very nice inputs from either side...
I still think though, that just like Karl said...
by the year 1943, the KM would have been able to have a carrier force ready, with operational planes...
(of course this is all hypothetical, because even if the war would have started only in 1943, the importance given to aircraft carriers and the navy-air force connection, was not the greatest..)
still the KM WOULD have been able to make it...
an important factor to the german success in an ark royal-gz battle would have also been, the British government...
just as Karl said, a Chamberlaine, would not have seen the threat a better equiped aircraft carrier in the german side...
therefore the main naval developments would have gone into BB or the anti-Uboot threat, but defiantly not into the FAA...
adios
miro
very nice inputs from either side...
I still think though, that just like Karl said...
by the year 1943, the KM would have been able to have a carrier force ready, with operational planes...
(of course this is all hypothetical, because even if the war would have started only in 1943, the importance given to aircraft carriers and the navy-air force connection, was not the greatest..)
still the KM WOULD have been able to make it...
an important factor to the german success in an ark royal-gz battle would have also been, the British government...
just as Karl said, a Chamberlaine, would not have seen the threat a better equiped aircraft carrier in the german side...
therefore the main naval developments would have gone into BB or the anti-Uboot threat, but defiantly not into the FAA...
adios
miro
Die See ruft....
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marcelo_malara
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Karl Heidenreich
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José M. Rico
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No one had a twin-engine plane in carrier service during the war. The British experimented with it and were able to deploy the Sea Mosquito and Sea Hornet shortly after war's end. The French had a twin-engine torpedo plane specification drawn up c1939, but obviously circumstances prevented much progress along those lines.
Personally I would prefer the Stuka to a 110. The Stuka was a superb divebomber. It would take up less room and require less maintenance than the 110. It would be tough to get folding wings onto a 110.
Personally I would prefer the Stuka to a 110. The Stuka was a superb divebomber. It would take up less room and require less maintenance than the 110. It would be tough to get folding wings onto a 110.
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Karl Heidenreich
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I felt that two on one complicates matters, the GZ has two separate targets to contend with.miro777 wrote: yes, but i was focusing on the air superiority of the Bf vs. the Swordfish...
wouldn't the combination of Bf, Ju be a better attack force, than just Swordfishes on the British carriers...
Swordfishes are certainly inferior to the aircraft GZ has but they are (from Bismarcks experience) a difficult target for the German AA guns.
There is also the question of numbers and the direction of attack - two carrier compliments of Swordfish against one target.
If the British attacks are closely co-ordinated then the British have an advantage. This would be particulary so if the British had Skua dive-bombers as well.
Without British co-ordinated attacks, a bold German commander would get the upper hand.
Another consideration - GZ had 15 cm guns. What if GZ got in shooting range of one of the British carriers?
The ultimate test would be i suppose a Midway type confrontation - say the two Z Plan carriers plus Europa against say Ark Royal, Illustrious, Victorious and Eagle. Any thoughts anybody?