Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

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ede144
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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by ede144 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:14 pm

@ Lutscha
If I interpret the AVKS report correctly, than it was possible to transmit range data from radar to. the range keeper. AVKS criticized that a plug need to be changed. This was corrected by an additional means, which allowedto change from optical to radar by push a switch. This was more easily done than exchange plugs in a socket
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Ede

Keith Enge
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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by Keith Enge » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:48 pm

RF -
The likely location of a battle between a pocket battleship and French warships wasn't off West Africa but actually near the Caribbean. There were nine "hunting groups" created and the ones with French ships were near the Caribbean. The nine groups (with their area of responsibilities in parentheses) were:

Force F (North Atlantic convoy escorts)
Berwick
York

Force G (east coast of South America)
Cumberland
Exeter
Achilles
Ajax

Force H (Cape Good Hope off South Africa)
Shropshire
Sussex

Force I (Indian Ocean, based in Ceylon)
Eagle
Dorsetshire
Cornwall

Force J (North Atlantic)
Glorious
Malaya

Force K (Central Atlantic)
Ark Royal
Renown
Hardy
Hero
Hereward
Hostile

Force L (North Atlantic)
Furious
Repulse

Force X (West Atlantic)
Dupleix
Foch

Force Y (West Indies)
Strasbourg
Hermes
Neptune

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by Djoser » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:19 pm

Byron Angel wrote:
Dave Saxton wrote: This type of automatic data transfer was being used for optical rangefinder data and optical bearing data from WWI on German ships according to Freidman.

..... The evolved German WW1 system, incorporating real-time electro-mechanical transmission of range data from multiple range-finder positions into the Mittlungs Apparat (an automatic electro-mechanical range averaging and range rate computer) did include a manually operated FTP link to transfer range rate output from the Mittlungs Apparat into the FC computer. It was without question an excellent system, but was not at that early point in time a completely automated one.

B
Haha this is why I love KBismarck. Great post.

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by Djoser » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:20 pm

Keith Enge wrote:RF -
The likely location of a battle between a pocket battleship and French warships wasn't off West Africa but actually near the Caribbean. There were nine "hunting groups" created and the ones with French ships were near the Caribbean. The nine groups (with their area of responsibilities in parentheses) were:

Force F (North Atlantic convoy escorts)
Berwick
York

Force G (east coast of South America)
Cumberland
Exeter
Achilles
Ajax

Force H (Cape Good Hope off South Africa)
Shropshire
Sussex

Force I (Indian Ocean, based in Ceylon)
Eagle
Dorsetshire
Cornwall

Force J (North Atlantic)
Glorious
Malaya

Force K (Central Atlantic)
Ark Royal
Renown
Hardy
Hero
Hereward
Hostile

Force L (North Atlantic)
Furious
Repulse

Force X (West Atlantic)
Dupleix
Foch

Force Y (West Indies)
Strasbourg
Hermes
Neptune
Wow thanks for posting--the naval wargamers amongst us can use this fopr sure.

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by Keith Enge » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:13 pm

Djoser - You're welcome. Remember that those hunting groups were to counter all three pocket battleships, not merely Graf Spee. Therefore, there is a possibility that one of the hunting groups might have encountered two or even three of them acting in concert. However, although they did occasionally meet, they tried to remain separate in order to cover more of the ocean and so maximize the number of contacts and victims. Of course, starting in the spring of 1940, six German armed merchant cruisers were added to the mix; they too occasionally rendezvoused with U-boats or the pocket battleship Admiral Scheer.

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by RF » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:35 pm

Keith Enge wrote:Djoser - You're welcome. Remember that those hunting groups were to counter all three pocket battleships, not merely Graf Spee. Therefore, there is a possibility that one of the hunting groups might have encountered two or even three of them acting in concert. However, although they did occasionally meet,
The Deutschland, under the command of Paul Wenneker (before he was sent to Japan as naval attache) was active in the North Atlantic at the start of WW2, and sank the British freighter Stonegate in the vicinity of Bermuda on 5 October 1939, before the fuhrer had the ship recalled and renamed. Thus there is the possibility that had Wenneker worked slightly westward he could have encountered the French warships.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by Keith Enge » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:12 pm

Besides the rather well known occasions when they did have combat, the pocket battleships had several other close encounters. Some of these "what if" battles were:

12/20/39 north of the Skagerrak
Deutschland vs Glasgow and Newcastle
The German ship was sighted attempting an Atlantic breakout so the British ships were sent to intercept. Nothing happened because the German, knowing she was detected, returned home.


Admiral Scheer was at sea from October 27, 1940 to April 1, 1941. She saw no action with warships but had numerous near encounters listed below.

12/18/40 in the South Atlantic
Admiral Scheer vs Dorsetshire and Neptune
The British cruisers are among the ships deployed against Scheer after a victim's distress signal. They found nothing.

2/20/41 in the Indian Ocean
Admiral Scheer vs Australia and Emerald escorting 20 troopships
Scheer was operating in the area but didn't find this convoy.

2/20/41 in the Indian Ocean
Admiral Scheer vs Australia and Hawkins escorting 16 troopships
Later that the same day, the convoy divided and reformed but Scheer didn't find the reformed convoy either.

2/22/41 in the Indian Ocean
Admiral Scheer vs Canberra and Glasgow
Despite being seen by Glasgow's aircraft, Scheer escaped and so avoided combat.

3/26/41 in the Denmark Strait
Admiral Scheer vs Fiji and Nigeria
Returning home to Germany, Scheer, unnoticed, avoided the patrolling CLs.


All of the potential actions involving Scheer would have occurred a very long way from home and possible repair. Therefore, she understandably did what she could to avoid any action even if she would have had somewhat of an advantage in combat potential.

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by RF » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:12 pm

Keith,

You missed off from your list the chance encounter that almost happened in September 1939 between AGS and Cumberland.
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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by slowrider » Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:29 am

One interesting statistic from the book "Dante's inferno, the naval history of Guadalcanal" the 2 Brooklyn class were recorded as firing 200 rounds per minute each over portions of the engagement, that would be 26,000 pounds per minute being sent towards AGS from one direction, 26,000 lbs from another direction, both from as far away as 26,000 yards, 'the Japanese after action report from guadalcanal claimed that the U.S. had developed a 6" machine gun :shock:' Add to that the 9 335 lb shells coming in from yet another direction every 15-20 seconds, all from ships with a 5-6 knot speed advantage over AGS and the outcome is fairly obvious too me, especially when you consider that lighter less well armed ships managed to cause AGSs demise.
If AGS were to attempt to close or gain distance from one of the 3 the other 2 could continue to impose whatever tactics they wished on AGS, and each 130 lb 6 " strike on AGS would atrit gun directors, radar, crew, guns, command and control and eventually her seaworthyness as happened with the fewer, lighter British shells, and the 335 lb CA hits would have wounded her more deepley than than the 250 lb shells from Exiter.

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by alecsandros » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:40 am

slowrider wrote: especially when you consider that lighter less well armed ships managed to cause AGSs demise.
.
Graf Spee did prettly much what he wanted with the 3 cruisers...

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by RF » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:28 pm

What actually caused the AGS demise was that it was bottled up in Montevideo and became victim of British propaganda about the RN strength allegedly gathering in the Plate.
Had AGS gone after the cruisers instead of running for Montevideo there could have been a different result, especially when you consider that at that point Ajax had half of its 6 inch guns knocked out....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by slowrider » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:28 am

Yes AGS was scuttled and in no danger of sinking from the damaged caused by the british ships, but she was also in no condition to make it home after recieving that damage and this was a contributing factor in her scuttling. Had she faced twice the weight of fire, with each hit being from a heavier shell than the ones that actually did the damage she may not have had the option of scuttling. Even if she had made it to port as she did in history the presence of the same number of heavier, better armed ships awaiting her outside wouldn't have had the captain considering fighting any more than they did in actuallity.

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by alecsandros » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:48 am

AGS was quite unlucky and poorly led that day.

You don't use a pocket battleship to launch torpedoes against light cruisers. It's simple. Yet, they did it... from 7km distance, instead of mantaining a killing distance of 14-16km and blasting all of the British ships to pieces. Constantly changing input from the director back and forth to the main and secondary guns didn't help either.

Even so, with 17 direct hits and plenty of near misses, Graf Spee was pretty much unscathed, had 60% ammo left, and could dictate the battle. On the other side, Exeter was withdrawing with all guns silenced, Ajax only had 4 guns operational, and ammo reserve down to 15% for both Ajax and Achilles.

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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by RF » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:36 am

slowrider wrote:Yes AGS was scuttled and in no danger of sinking from the damaged caused by the british ships, but she was also in no condition to make it home after recieving that damage and this was a contributing factor in her scuttling. Had she faced twice the weight of fire, with each hit being from a heavier shell than the ones that actually did the damage she may not have had the option of scuttling. Even if she had made it to port as she did in history the presence of the same number of heavier, better armed ships awaiting her outside wouldn't have had the captain considering fighting any more than they did in actuallity.
Well the Uruguayans, in accordance with International Law, gave AGS three days to make good the actual damage, as inspected by them. Had AGS suffered heavier damage, that implies a longer time period, based on the time to repair that damage, if AGS had gone to Montevideo.

Now that of course would give the RN (or USN) more time to reinforce outside Montevideo, and we come back to the scuttling issue. Of course, being US ships I wouldn't put it past the Americans to send one of their cruisers into Montevideo and tie up right alog side the AGS...... just to keep in the Germans face...
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Re: Best U.S. cruisers at the river Platte

Post by RF » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:43 am

alecsandros wrote: You don't use a pocket battleship to launch torpedoes against light cruisers. It's simple. Yet, they did it... from 7km distance,
I'm not aware that AGS did fire torpedoes, or that Ajax/Achilles closed to less than four and a half miles. What Rasenack did record in his book was that AGS took avoiding action against ten alleged torpedo tracks, No mention is made of AGS firing torpedoes, indeed there would be a danger that the exposed torpedo battery on the stern, exposed to 6 inch fire, could be hit and the torpedoes detonated - which would certainly finish the AGS.
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