Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
dharma6
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Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by dharma6 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:20 pm

Kirov vs the Royal Navy – 1941
OK, as this is a forum for hypothetical scenarios, I took a long look at the development of modern naval surface combatants vs their WWII counterparts and then put it into a 400 page fictional novel entitled “Kirov,” a military fiction novel akin to “The Final Countdown.” http://www.writingshop.ws/html/kirov.html

If you recall that ‘80s vintage Sci-Fi-movie, the Nimitz is displaced in time and appears Dec 6, 1941 on the eve of Pearl Harbor. Unfortunately, there are no real naval engagements to speak of in the movie. In my story I wanted to see the world’s premier modern surface combat square off against the destroyers, cruisers, carriers and battleships of 1941 in the North Atlantic. So I selected a revitalized and refit Kirov class battlecruiser (guided missile cruiser), and displaced her in time to the Norwegian Sea, July 28, 1941.

Bismarck was sunk just two months ago, and the Royal Navy is presently involved with operations aimed at preparing for the initiation of the Murmansk convoys. Wake-walker’s Force P, with carriers Victorious and Furious is en route to the north cape of Norway for the raid on Kirkenes and Petsamo, but suddenly makes contact with what they come to believe is a new German raider. The Royal Navy goes into overdrive trying to determine what ship this might be, Tirpitz? Admiral Sheer? A Hipper Class Cruiser? The boys at Bletchley Park narrow down the list, and even consider that this new contact might be the Graf Zeppelin. No matter… The hunt is soon on in a naval saga much like the hunt for the Bismarck, only the British are about to get a big surprise. If Admiral Tovey thought he had his hands full with Bismarck, he is now up against the most formidable surface raider ever built! Kirov is carrying Russia’s latest evolution of anti ship missiles, the successor to the Brah/Mos missile dubbed “Sunburn-II” by NATO. Deciding that the nations that eventually form NATO are their real enemies, the Russians decide to intervene in the war against the US and UK, (and stomp on any U-boat or German ship they encounter as well). Kirov is about to run the Denmark Strait, and soon the Yanks get in the hunt as well with their Atlantic Fleet, which was covering the US relief of the British garrison on Iceland in August of 1941. I worked out the exact positions of all capital ships on July 28, 1941, right down to destroyers, dropped Kirov into the Norwegian sea, and the rest was pure naval joy! :D

Anyone interested in this sort of hypothetical naval action is cordially invited to take a look at the novel, Kirov, by John Schettler. And of course, I would love to hear what others think about this improbable but immensely intriguing scenario, and the outcome the book reaches.

Image

Pr.Eugen
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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by Pr.Eugen » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:39 am

Good joke ... It is excellent.

The author has solved the problem of replenishment of ammunition? :cool:

dharma6
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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by dharma6 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:12 am

No, the Achilles heel of Kirov is that she is limited to the ammo inventory she has. Yet, as the ship was about to undertake live fire exercises, Kirov's inventory of Moskit-II "(Sunburn-II)" SSM missiles was doubled. So at the time she arrives in 1941 here inventory is as follows:

40 x Moskit-II Sunburn SSM (20 Plus 20 reloads)
10 x MOS-III "Starfire" SSM
10 x P-900 SS-N-27B "Sizzler" Cruise Missiles
6x 152mm Guns on three twin turrets. (1000 rounds per turret)
1 x 100mm Gun (1000 rounds)
10 x UGST Torpedo x 10
10 x Shkval ASW Underwater Rockets
64 x S-300 (Long Range SAM)
128 x SA-N-92 Gauntlet (Medium Range SAM)
4 x 30mm Close In Defense Gating Guns
2 x KA-40 ASW Helicopters (A variant on the KA-27)
1 x KA-226 Scout Helicopter
20 x Naval Marine Contingent

Dat's it...But the ship packs quite a punch! The question is...what does it take to really "mission kill" a well armored WWII battleship?...and how long can Kirov hold forth vs the naval might of the US and Royal Navy. Against her, the allies muster all of 52 ships at one time or another in the book. The Allied ship roster is here: http://www.writingshop.ws/html/about_kirov.html
Kindle edition came out today for the curious!

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tameraire01
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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by tameraire01 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:49 pm

The Brits and the NAZIS have a temporary truce till it is sunk then fight for what is left of the battered missile cruiser.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by dunmunro » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:54 pm

The Axis invaded the USSR on June 22 1941...so why would Kirov fight for the Nazis?

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tameraire01
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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by tameraire01 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:50 pm

Britain and the Germans declare a temporary truce to sink the thing then what is left of the battered wreck we fight over so the other side does not get it.
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas. Joseph Stalin

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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by winterfell » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:36 am

If Kirov had appeared on North Atlantic on July 28, 1940 (i.e. one year earlier), Dharma6’s scenario would have been much more plausible.

Since August 1939 (the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact) Soviet Union and Germany were good allies. They together partitioned Poland. Afterwards Germany could turn to the West with its eastern flank secured. Meanwhile Soviet Union attacked Finland, occupied Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia and grabbed part of Romania.
Soviet Union provided food and many resources needed for German war production. On other hand Germans were selling various equipment and armament to Russians (i.a. heavy cruiser Lutzow). There were advanced talks on purchase of German-made artillery for Soviet battlecruisers that were being built by then. Moreover Russians allowed German warships to use port near Murmansk.

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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by paul.mercer » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:06 pm

Gentlemen,
I would have thought that with all her anti ship missiles she would have blown the opposition out of the water long before they could get anywhere near her!

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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by dunmunro » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:25 pm

tameraire01 wrote:Britain and the Germans declare a temporary truce to sink the thing then what is left of the battered wreck we fight over so the other side does not get it.
Kirov would be regarded as an asset by the RN, not a foe.

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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by winterfell » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:57 pm

dunmunro wrote:

Kirov would be regarded as an asset by the RN, not a foe.
However, according to dharma6's scenario, Royal Navy's task force was attacked by Kirov.

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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by paul.mercer » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:54 pm

Gentlemen,
I believe that in the book Kirov was carrying nukes in some of her missiles in which case it would be no contest!

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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by Garyt » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:43 pm

If anyone has the game system for Command at Sea, this might be a pretty good way to play it out.

Command at Sea has a few deficiencies IMO for resolving combat, it's just a tad abstract in armor penetration and damage, but is probably more detailed than any game out there other than Seakrieg.

And what it does great is to normalize combat between ships of a different age or vessels of different sizes.

Looking at the numbers, it would probably take a good 20 Granit's to sink the Prince of Wales, at least to even get close to sinking, with much depending upon critical hits obtained. Maybe less could sink it if they all come in in a rather short period of time. I would add that Command at Sea's numbers are usually pretty good when it comes to damage dished out and how a ship reacts, if anything it sinks vessels a bit too quick, though I guess there is not a lot of difference between a burnt out ship that has to be scuttled and a ship that is sunk.

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neil hilton
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Re: Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)

Post by neil hilton » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:52 pm

If Kirov in this hypothetical scenario had nukes, the first thing they would do is convert their A/S missiles targeting so they could nuke Berlin and stop Barbarossa before it happened and thus preventing the great patriotic war from happening. For Russia the Cold War was nothing compared to the agony of WW2.
Veni, vidi, verrimus!
I came, I saw, I swept the floor!

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