H class Battleships

[Pandora]

The German government only had a certain amount of cash and other resources to work with. If they allocate more towards ships in particular battleships then it has to come from somewhere. Even into the mid 30's it's not clear that the Nazis were in firm enough control to cut back on civilian spending. The imlication is it has to come from elsewhere ... i.e. other military spending.

on my previous posts I put just an example from where the funds might have come and you did you even bother to comment.

As for France being defeated by "only a small portion of the German army" http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic ... 45&t=30229 rather implies it was the majority and not only that that it was the more expensive components of it and the Luftwaffe.

no more that 25 German divisions entered in combat during the invasion of France.

Do you have a figure by the way for what those cost? And how many were employeed in the process?

yes I do.

In case you missed it that was a rather thinly veiled request for you to produce it.

do you have a figure for what the new chancellery and the Zeppelinweise alone costed? and how many were employeed in the process?

No I don't. If you do why don't you state it rather than wasting time?

I do have detailed figures and I wont waste your time.., with the money spent on the nazi architectural projects there is enough to built a couple of battleships.

[lwd]

on my previous posts I put just an example from where the funds might have come and you did you even bother to comment.

Didn't I? I suggest you look a little closer. There is for instance a serioius question as to whether or not they could have used those funds. Even if they could have used them there's the question of when they would be avaialble. Note how some of the army was financed by takeing deposits for cars that ended up not being produced. Doesn't exactly sound like a governement flush with cash does it.

As for France being defeated by "only a small portion of the German army" http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic ... 45&t=30229 rather implies it was the majority and not only that that it was the more expensive components of it and the Luftwaffe.

no more that 25 German divisions entered in combat during the invasion of France.

That doesn't mean significantly more weren't involved and in any case look at which ones were involved. All the Panzer divisions for instance. However just looking at wiki it certainly looks like considerably more than 25 were involved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... spositions

The German Army was divided into three army groups. Army Group A commanded by Gerd von Rundstedt, composed of 45½ divisions including seven armoured,
...
Army Group B under Fedor von Bock, composed of 29½ divisions including three armoured,
...
Army Group C, composed of 18 divisions under Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb, was charged with preventing a flanking movement from the east, and with launching small holding attacks against the Maginot Line and the upper Rhine.

Now wiki isn't the best source in the world but I wouldn't expect the number of divisions in each army group to be too far off and I see 93 divisions listed.

I do have detailed figures and I wont waste your time.., with the money spent on the nazi architectural projects there is enough to built a couple of battleships.

So you have the information and oppertunity to make a useful contribution and choose not to. The question still reamians open as to whether or not your assessement is accurate especially in the time lines being considered.

[Pandora]

As for France being defeated by "only a small portion of the German army" http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic ... 45&t=30229 rather implies it was the majority and not only that that it was the more expensive components of it and the Luftwaffe.

no more that 25 German divisions entered in combat during the invasion of France.

That doesn't mean significantly more weren't involved and in any case look at which ones were involved. All the Panzer divisions for instance. However just looking at wiki it certainly looks like considerably more than 25 were involved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... spositions

The German Army was divided into three army groups. Army Group A commanded by Gerd von Rundstedt, composed of 45½ divisions including seven armoured,
...
Army Group B under Fedor von Bock, composed of 29½ divisions including three armoured,
...
Army Group C, composed of 18 divisions under Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb, was charged with preventing a flanking movement from the east, and with launching small holding attacks against the Maginot Line and the upper Rhine.

Now wiki isn't the best source in the world but I wouldn't expect the number of divisions in each army group to be too far off and I see 93 divisions listed.

LOL, and of those 93 divisions more than half of them didnt even fire a shot.
anyway, this is all irrelevant since I dont see any need to reduce the size of the army at all to built battleships.

I do have detailed figures and I wont waste your time.., with the money spent on the nazi architectural projects there is enough to built a couple of battleships.

So you have the information and oppertunity to make a useful contribution and choose not to. The question still reamians open as to whether or not your assessement is accurate especially in the time lines being considered.

omg! what are you testing me or what? isnt my word enough for you?
Ok, I will give you what you want. the Bismarck cost 196.8 million Reichmarks, the New Chancellery alone cost about half that 90 Million Reichsmark and it is just one of the many constructions of the Nazis. so you do your adding.

[Djoser]

Except you can't really do that unless you can put them in context and that means also considering what the other impacts of building them would be both on Germany and other nations. In a world where there's no Great Depression and the reparations are significantly less do you even have a Nazi Germany? If there are H class battleships are their Lions and Montana's as well?

Fine, let the other nations build their own super battleships--the 'H' class could have still been built without too much being all that drastically different--perhaps a somewhat smaller Luftwaffe, whatever.

I think you understimate the cost of buidling these ships. Then there's the question about how much smaller the rest of the Wehrmact can get and still succeed in the conquest of France. Or can it at all anyway. Certainly building the H class will raise some eyebrows in Britain as well as elsewhere.

There could even have been 'H' class battleships without a Hitler or a Nazi party as well. All that would be required was the perception of a need for an extremely powerful battleship, and the willingness to correspondingly lower other armaments priorities to get the ship(s) built.

But how closely would this resemble an H class? Wouldn't it very mcuh determien what the actual percieved need was?

So let's return to an analysis of what the existence of H class battleships might have meant in tactical and strategic terms, and maybe spend less time in the Hypothetical Naval Scenarios section saying no such hypothetical scenarios were possible?

But how do you determine the tactical and strategic implications if you don't know what assets the various powers have available?

Also--I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong (and possibly even if I am right lol!)--it has been my understanding that Germany didn't embark on the kind of rigorous economic/production limitations (that say Soviet Russia had) necessary for total mobilization of the nation's resources for munitions production, until mid-war. It was 'Guns and Butter' then, for the German nation until the end was in sight. Granted such more drastic controls on national production could have caused civilian discontent...

I strongly suggest you read Wages of Destruction. The German economy was pretty much broken in the mid and late 30's. Germany absent the Austrian gold reserves might well have been bankrupt by the early 40's if not sooner.

OK I will have to check out the book, thanks for posting about it--it will make an excellent complementary bit of reading to The Arms of Krupp which I recently finished. In the meantime, I can address some of these points.

I am not underestimating the cost of the ships. I am positing a slightly different set of historical circumstances, in order to consider what the effect of maybe 2 H class battleships could have had upon a slightly different world order. Or better yet, one H class and one H class hull modified and completed as an aircraft carrier a la Kagi, Lexington, etc.. This is, after all, the 'Hypothetical Naval Scenarios' section--not the 'Why No Hypothetical Naval Scenarios Could Ever Possibly Happen' section.

One way the German economy could have avoided the crushing burden it faced in the 30s--no Stock Market Crash. Anyone who knows much about the stock market in the 20s (or even today) can tell you it was based on herd psychology, a contrived and precarious facade which nonetheless had the power to devastate the world's economic health--even though there wasn't any less coal, steel, or trained workers, etc. The crash certainly affected Germany--perhaps worse than the USA, as any number of sources will attest. Here is just one for an example: http://voices.yahoo.com/how-did-stock-m ... 24658.html.

So we have a Germany in much better shape to build ships, with perhaps an increased emphasis on defense spending and less propaganda derived ostentatious building as others have pointed out could have happened.

As far as the design difference had Hitler not taken power--Hitler was not the designer of the Bismarck or the H Class. The same highly talented naval architects would have been ready to draw up plans for a better battleship in the 30s, and could well have duplicated what was in fact designed.

"But how do you determine the tactical and strategic implications if you don't know what assets the various powers have available?"

Because I have an imagination, and I like to use it, therefore I can easily use it, and it is enjoyable to do so. So I can readily come up with various scenarios positing altered naval orders of battle. Maybe it is my historical gaming background at work. Obviously the other powers will be likely construct bigger and/or more battleships to counter the H class, which leads to an abundance of fascinating possibilities. The Lion built earlier, bigger and upgunned KGVs, less treaty restrictions applied to the SDs and Iowas--the variables are many and offer intriguing potential for intellectual amusement. Which I believe to be the purpose of this area of the forum.

[lwd]

...
LOL, and of those 93 divisions more than half of them didnt even fire a shot.

I'd certainly like to see sources for that. Of course whether or not they fired a shot doesn't mean that they weren't involved in the invasion.

anyway, this is all irrelevant since I dont see any need to reduce the size of the army at all to built battleships.

Germany had a very constrained economy in the prewar period. Not just financially by the way but resource wise. If you build additional battleships the money and resources have to come from somewhere.

I do have detailed figures and I wont waste your time.., with the money spent on the nazi architectural projects there is enough to built a couple of battleships.

So you have the information and oppertunity to make a useful contribution and choose not to. The question still reamians open as to whether or not your assessement is accurate especially in the time lines being considered.

omg! what are you testing me or what? isnt my word enough for you?

If you claim you have data you should be willing to present it for a number of reasons such as:
1) Others might be interested in the actual numbers and indeed have other uses for them.
2) The source you used might be questionable or it might be a superior source for other data as well as the current data.
3) The details and interpretation of the data may make your point very well or invalidate it.

Ok, I will give you what you want. the Bismarck cost 196.8 million Reichmarks, the New Chancellery alone cost about half that 90 Million Reichsmark and it is just one of the many constructions of the Nazis. so you do your adding.

Were the others as expensive? When did they start? Looking for information on the New Chancellery I found that it started in 1937 and while nominally finished in 1938 work contineud into the early 40's. How was it payed for and howe were the payments made over time? If you have to start building battleships in 1935 having the money in 1938 doesn't help much does it? Then there's the question of what resources were involved. Battleships take a lot of high quality steel and Germany needed to import much of that. However Germany had a very limited amount of foreign exchange during this period and by the mid 30's their credit was getting pretty thin. Thus they either needed to use more foreign excange which was historically dedicated elsewhere or gain more but about the only way they could do that would be to export more machine goods but they needed these for themselves and they also used foreign resources. Then ther's the bread and cituses effect. The Nazis needed to keep their popularity up during this period especially given the pyramid schemes they had implemented. Projects like the Chancelory helped with this cancelling them wouldn't.

[lwd]

I am not underestimating the cost of the ships. I am positing a slightly different set of historical circumstances, in order to consider what the effect of maybe 2 H class battleships could have had upon a slightly different world order. Or better yet, one H class and one H class hull modified and completed as an aircraft carrier a la Kagi, Lexington, etc.. This is, after all, the 'Hypothetical Naval Scenarios' section--not the 'Why No Hypothetical Naval Scenarios Could Ever Possibly Happen' section.

I submit that one way to avoid the rather complex economic discussions if that is your aim is to come up with a very detailed scenario description including orders of battle. Now some will likely still argue with the details of these but as long as they are reasonable it shouldn't throw the thread off too much.

One way the German economy could have avoided the crushing burden it faced in the 30s--no Stock Market Crash. .... The crash certainly affected Germany--perhaps worse than the USA, as any number of sources will attest.

Indeed. Tooze for instance suggest that without the depression the reperations may well have been modified in the early 30's by general agreement and that the Depression was to a large extent the reasons the Nazis rose to power. Thus without it you still have a Weimar Germany in the 30s and 40s and no push toward WWII.

So we have a Germany in much better shape to build ships, with perhaps an increased emphasis on defense spending and less propaganda derived ostentatious building as others have pointed out could have happened.

All the major powers would also have been in better shape. In this situation the USSR may still be the chief threat in Europe but British and German interest are likely to be fairly strongly aligned suggesting less need for a battlefleet.

As far as the design difference had Hitler not taken power--Hitler was not the designer of the Bismarck or the H Class. The same highly talented naval architects would have been ready to draw up plans for a better battleship in the 30s, and could well have duplicated what was in fact designed.

But the design of the ship will be greatly influenced by naval doctrine and how it is likely to be used. If it looks like the Baltic is to be the most likely area of conflict then a navy designed to fight there will look considerably different than one designed to fight in the North Sea or the Atlantic. This would include some significant differences in the design of indivudual ships as well as numbers and types.

"But how do you determine the tactical and strategic implications if you don't know what assets the various powers have available?

Because I have an imagination, and I like to use it, therefore I can easily use it, and it is enjoyable to do so. So I can readily come up with various scenarios positing altered naval orders of battle. Maybe it is my historical gaming background at work. Obviously the other powers will be likely construct bigger and/or more battleships to counter the H class, which leads to an abundance of fascinating possibilities. The Lion built earlier, bigger and upgunned KGVs, less treaty restrictions applied to the SDs and Iowas--the variables are many and offer intriguing potential for intellectual amusement. Which I believe to be the purpose of this area of the forum.

But the challenge should be to develope ones that have some basis in reality and reason otherwise we end up with Birds of Prey in the mix. To do so you need to look at the other powers and project their naval developments with as much detail as you do the German ones. Just pulling scenarios out of thin air may be an exercise of imagination and it may be enjoyable but it hardly relates to history.

[Pandora]

Germany had a very constrained economy in the prewar period. Not just financially by the way but resource wise. If you build additional battleships the money and resources have to come from somewhere.

correct, and cancelling useless projects would have helped.

Ok, I will give you what you want. the Bismarck cost 196.8 million Reichmarks, the New Chancellery alone cost about half that 90 Million Reichsmark and it is just one of the many constructions of the Nazis. so you do your adding.

Were the others as expensive? When did they start? Looking for information on the New Chancellery I found that it started in 1937 and while nominally finished in 1938 work contineud into the early 40's. How was it payed for and howe were the payments made over time? If you have to start building battleships in 1935 having the money in 1938 doesn't help much does it? Then there's the question of what resources were involved. Battleships take a lot of high quality steel and Germany needed to import much of that. However Germany had a very limited amount of foreign exchange during this period and by the mid 30's their credit was getting pretty thin. Thus they either needed to use more foreign excange which was historically dedicated elsewhere or gain more but about the only way they could do that would be to export more machine goods but they needed these for themselves and they also used foreign resources.

I suggest you read some more about the Congress Hall, Zeppelin Feld, Wilhelmshaven locks, the Siegfried Line, autobahns, etc and then we can discuss it.

Then ther's the bread and cituses effect. The Nazis needed to keep their popularity up during this period especially given the pyramid schemes they had implemented. Projects like the Chancelory helped with this cancelling them wouldn't.

the Chencellery helped Nazi popularity?

[Pandora]

Just pulling scenarios out of thin air may be an exercise of imagination and it may be enjoyable but it hardly relates to history.

so what? this forum is full of threads that hardly relate to history such as "Tirpitz shelling New York", "Kirov vs The Royal Navy (in 1941 !!!)", "Yamato vs Super Yamato", etc because people like to imagine and enjoy. you should join and enjoy too instead of hijacking threads with your remarks.

[Djoser]

Good post lwd, except the end maybe lol.

Your criteria concerning what elements define a plausible hypothetical scenario seems to differ from mine. But don't insult my intelligence by saying the notion that an H class battleship could have been built 'hardly relates to history'. I spent many years at one of the top universities in the world on historical studies, so I think I am quite as well qualified as you might be to determine the value of my conjecture. I'm all for a critical testing of the rationale behind a theoretical situation, but no one here holds the grand authority to pronounce final judgement in such a fashion.

It is a historical fact that there was a design for an extremely powerful H class battleship. It is a historical fact that Germany possessed the resources and the trained labor to build at least one of them, even if some sacrifices had to be made elsewhere (or that there was perhaps no depression). Hitler certainly p*ssed away gigantic amounts of money on many questionable projects, as well as some that were very effective.

What the reaction of the other powers might have been does not subtract anything at all from the value of the conjecture that such a ship could have been built. Though of course what the possible opponents would have therefore been like...makes for a very interesting thread.

So instead of dismissing the entertainment value of this entire thread by saying it was utterly impossible, let's have some fun and relax while discussing what such a ship might have been like, and what kind of battles it may have fought.

[lwd]

Germany had a very constrained economy in the prewar period. Not just financially by the way but resource wise. If you build additional battleships the money and resources have to come from somewhere.

correct, and cancelling useless projects would have helped.

Indeed but the question is which if any were truly useless? And of course how much would they have saved.

I suggest you read some more about the Congress Hall, Zeppelin Feld, Wilhelmshaven locks, the Siegfried Line, autobahns, etc and then we can discuss it.

At least some of these were quite useful from what I've read. I submit that you need to make your case if you think otherwise.

Then ther's the bread and cituses effect. The Nazis needed to keep their popularity up during this period especially given the pyramid schemes they had implemented. Projects like the Chancelory helped with this cancelling them wouldn't.

the Chencellery helped Nazi popularity?

Much of the grandious architeture was designed to glorify Germany and of course the Nazi's. My impression is that to a large extent it fulfilled that function. Certainly the popularity of the Nazi government increased substantialy in the early years.

[lwd]

...It is a historical fact that there was a design for an extremely powerful H class battleship.

No argument there.

It is a historical fact that Germany possessed the resources and the trained labor to build at least one of them, even if some sacrifices had to be made elsewhere (or that there was perhaps no depression). Hitler certainly p*ssed away gigantic amounts of money on many questionable projects, as well as some that were very effective.

There we get in a bit of a problem. The H class plans didn't exist until the Nazi's had been in power for a number of years. By the time they existed given Hitler's ambitions and actions the completion of an H class battleship becomes extremely problematic. Now if you are willing to make enough POD's then indeed you can justify but makeing more than a couple IMO moves the thread from historical what if to fantasy and comes close to what some refer to as "alien space bat" discussions.

What the reaction of the other powers might have been does not subtract anything at all from the value of the conjecture that such a ship could have been built. Though of course what the possible opponents would have therefore been like...makes for a very interesting thread.

However to discuss it's use and counter moves requires a rather thurough analsyis of both the conflcit it's used in and the resources of it's opponents. Indeed if you postulate for instance no depression there's a very good chance that it doesn't get built indeed there's a very good chance the Nazi's never come to power and WWII if it occurs occurse significantly later and with a very different match up.

So instead of dismissing the entertainment value of this entire thread by saying it was utterly impossible, let's have some fun and relax while discussing what such a ship might have been like, and what kind of battles it may have fought.

As it is the topic is so broad as to be of little value. Now if someone would define it more narrowly as in give a reasonably detailed descripiton of the contflict the allied and opposing forces and at least some justification for them then we could move forwardf rom there.

[Djoser]

...It is a historical fact that there was a design for an extremely powerful H class battleship.

No argument there.

It is a historical fact that Germany possessed the resources and the trained labor to build at least one of them, even if some sacrifices had to be made elsewhere (or that there was perhaps no depression). Hitler certainly p*ssed away gigantic amounts of money on many questionable projects, as well as some that were very effective.

There we get in a bit of a problem. The H class plans didn't exist until the Nazi's had been in power for a number of years. By the time they existed given Hitler's ambitions and actions the completion of an H class battleship becomes extremely problematic. Now if you are willing to make enough POD's then indeed you can justify but makeing more than a couple IMO moves the thread from historical what if to fantasy and comes close to what some refer to as "alien space bat" discussions.

What the reaction of the other powers might have been does not subtract anything at all from the value of the conjecture that such a ship could have been built. Though of course what the possible opponents would have therefore been like...makes for a very interesting thread.

However to discuss it's use and counter moves requires a rather thurough analsyis of both the conflcit it's used in and the resources of it's opponents. Indeed if you postulate for instance no depression there's a very good chance that it doesn't get built indeed there's a very good chance the Nazi's never come to power and WWII if it occurs occurse significantly later and with a very different match up.

So instead of dismissing the entertainment value of this entire thread by saying it was utterly impossible, let's have some fun and relax while discussing what such a ship might have been like, and what kind of battles it may have fought.

As it is the topic is so broad as to be of little value. Now if someone would define it more narrowly as in give a reasonably detailed descripiton of the contflict the allied and opposing forces and at least some justification for them then we could move forwardf rom there.

"As it is the topic is so broad as to be of little value."

Speak for yourself. I find the possibilities fascinating, and of great entertainment value. Or they would be, if we could move past this obstinate insistence that no 'H' class could ever have been built, when in fact an 'H' class could very well have been built, had Hitler had different priorities.

Suppose Speer had been given control of the war industry much earlier? The guy actually improved industrial production during the heavy bombardment of '44. Imagine what Speer, or maybe a slightly older version of Speer, could have accomplished had he been given control of German production in the late 30's, 5-6 years earlier

Or if a different leader than Hitler had come to power in a Depression-free Germany, and a conflict arisen (or potential conflict been foreseen) that led the naval architects to work with similar criteria. For that matter, it is quite possible that Hitler could have risen to power even in a Depression-free Germany--though he would no doubt have taken a different approach to it, and behaved differently once he attained it. He (unfortunately) possessed tremendous charisma and had one of the most powerful speaking voices in history, combined with ruthless ambition. Such men tend to rise to positions of authority no matter what the circumstances.

As far as opponents goes, by all means go ahead, spend some time postulating the likely reaction of the Allies, or alternate Allied nations if you would like. That would be a much more interesting contribution to the thread than repeatedly telling those of us who are interested in the possibilities of this thread, that we are all being irrational.

And please..."alien space bats"??? This isn't Star Trek, we aren't discussing a Klingon battlecruiser here. We're simply talking about a bigger, better Bismarck, which could well have been built had Hitler been more disposed to developing a powerful surface fleet.

[Pandora]

Djoser, I wouldnt waste anymore time with him. it is worthless.

[ede144]

I wonder whar kind of banana republik Germany and the KM was. Ship H was properly designed and orderd. Same aplied to shipI. This would not happen when financial recources would not be available. German bureaucracy was always world class.
Regards
Ede

[lwd]

I wonder whar kind of banana republik Germany and the KM was. Ship H was properly designed and orderd. Same aplied to shipI. This would not happen when financial recources would not be available. German bureaucracy was always world class. ...

That would explain why Germany was almost bankrupt in the late 30's and the Cancelation of both the Hindenburg and the H class vessels right?