H class Battleships

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

Djoser wrote: ... "As it is the topic is so broad as to be of little value."

Speak for yourself. I find the possibilities fascinating, and of great entertainment value.
The problem is if the topic is too broad it fractures into multiple discussions and rapidly becomes quite difficult for people to tell just what line is being discussed in any one post. Better to have a series of well defined "what ifs" than to have one huge one.
Or they would be, if we could move past this obstinate insistence that no 'H' class could ever have been built, when in fact an 'H' class could very well have been built, had Hitler had different priorities.
That's a bit of a straw man though isn't it? No one here has suggested the H class couldn't have been built. As you suggest it's a matter of priorities but how these change effects how the H class would/could have been used and also impacts the priorities of other nations based on thier knowledge and assesesment of German intentions and their own positon.
Suppose Speer had been given control of the war industry much earlier? The guy actually improved industrial production during the heavy bombardment of '44.
I believe Tooze raises some serioius questions about this. I haven't got to that chapter yet in Wages of Destruction but from comments by others and some of his online works he seems to make a good case.
Or if a different leader than Hitler had come to power in a Depression-free Germany, and a conflict arisen (or potential conflict been foreseen) that led the naval architects to work with similar criteria.
But we need to have some sort of background to work from for this to be any sort or reasonable exchange. It could make quite an interesting what if in and of itself if a well defined POD was posted. For instance if there's no Depression there's a very good chance that many of the more objectionable treaty of Versailes provisions are eliminated by mutual agreement. In such a world who ends up being th emajor opponent of Germany? The Soviets are a likely one but aren't a naval power.
For that matter, it is quite possible that Hitler could have risen to power even in a Depression-free Germany--though he would no doubt have taken a different approach to it, and behaved differently once he attained it. He (unfortunately) possessed tremendous charisma and had one of the most powerful speaking voices in history, combined with ruthless ambition. Such men tend to rise to positions of authority no matter what the circumstances.
In essence you are saying he wouldn't have been the Hitler we know today. Certainly he was one of the master oratores of the century but the Nazi party was loosing ground when he was invited to become chancelor and had gained ground msotly due to the Depression. By that thime HItler had made his political and racial philosphies pretty clear.
As far as opponents goes, by all means go ahead, spend some time postulating the likely reaction of the Allies, or alternate Allied nations if you would like.
Come up with a well defined what if in which to make them and I will. I do suggest a sseperate thread though.
And please..."alien space bats"??? This isn't Star Trek, we aren't discussing a Klingon battlecruiser here. We're simply talking about a bigger, better Bismarck, which could well have been built had Hitler been more disposed to developing a powerful surface fleet.
But without a well defined back ground it might as well be.
ede144
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by ede144 »

One can say the Same from the US, or a doezen other States
Regards
Ede
lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

ede144 wrote:One can say the Same from the US, or a doezen other States
One can say what exactly? and who has?
If you are talking about the "German bureaucracy was always world class". Then I don't think anyone has suggested that any other country fit that bill. Of course it depends on just how you mean the term. Ceratainly one of Germany's biggest problems during the war was a rather ineffient managment system, one need only look at all the logistics problems they had. One could also look at the overall economy which was also a real mess.
ede144
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by ede144 »

Lwd
My Last Post refers to your statement that
Germany was bankrupt in 1939. This could also stated to a lot of countries these days. The bureaucracy kept Germany running, when the NSdAp tried to influence everything in Germany. What could happen to countries led by amateurs, you can study by countries like Udssr in the 20"s or China in the 50's.Nevertheless Germany laid down H and I and would have finished both by 1944.
Regards
Ede
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by Djoser »

OK, I am sick to death of wasting time discussing why this thread shouldn't even exist.

Let's assume that two H class battleships were begun, and one was converted to an aircraft carrier half way through.

So we have a potential order of battle:

1 H-39
Bismarck and Tirpitz
1 large aircraft carrier converted from H-39 class hull
1 Graf zeppelin


Who would like to come up with an opposing British order of battle? Obviously the Brits would mobilize everything they had to counter such a major threat to their Atlantic commerce, and we might also see the same kind of gradually constricting cordon of warships drawn from other tasks and areas converging on the threat, as happened with the Bismark/Prinz Eugen breakout.

We can also work out a likely meeting place for the engagement(s).

I would assume a similar Atlantic commerce raiding expedition as saw the demise of the Hood and Bismarck, albeit on a much larger scale.
Djoser
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by Djoser »

Obviously the Brits should be allowed a Lion class battleship, or maybe two.

Let's leave out the S & G, as well as the Repulse and Renown, for simplicity's sake.
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RF
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by RF »

lwd wrote: That would explain why Germany was almost bankrupt in the late 30's and the Cancelation of both the Hindenburg and the H class vessels ...
I don't understand this comment. Germany had economic problems in the late 1930's but they were structural not financial.

Most countries governments control the money supply and influence the amount of credit available. As such they cannot go bankrupt because they can print more money, borrow or raise taxes. The constraint is inflation.
What Nazi Germany did have to do - like other countries - was balance scarce resources, that introductory conundrum for any course on microeconomics
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

Djoser wrote:...
So we have a potential order of battle:

1 H-39
Bismarck and Tirpitz
1 large aircraft carrier converted from H-39 class hull
1 Graf zeppelin
...
We can also work out a likely meeting place for the engagement(s).

I would assume a similar Atlantic commerce raiding expedition as saw the demise of the Hood and Bismarck, albeit on a much larger scale.
Time Frame? Looks to me like it will have to be at least 43. Restricted to British or combined US British?

If it's as late as 43 the Germans are likely to be spotted shortly after they leave Norway which suggest an engagment to one side or the other of Iceland.
lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

RF wrote:
lwd wrote: That would explain why Germany was almost bankrupt in the late 30's and the Cancelation of both the Hindenburg and the H class vessels ...
I don't understand this comment. Germany had economic problems in the late 1930's but they were structural not financial.

Most countries governments control the money supply and influence the amount of credit available. As such they cannot go bankrupt because they can print more money, borrow or raise taxes. The constraint is inflation.
There's also the constraint of foreign debt. Germany had a lot of it and it was coming due. While they could print all the money they wanted for internal use getting it accepted outside Germany was another matter. If Germany were self sufficient in raw materials this wouldn't be that big of deal but she was not.
lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

This is a rather curious option:
Djoser wrote:...
Let's assume that two H class battleships were begun, and one was converted to an aircraft carrier half way through.
...
1 large aircraft carrier converted from H-39 class hull
...
The implication is that something has convinced the Germans that aircraft carriers are worth more than battleships but so convinced them after the H-40 was well underway. Converted hulls don't make the most efficient ships so why the change over?Didn't the Germans at least have plans if not the hull of another carrier started as well?

In any case we'd need to know what her airgroup looks like to make any assesement in which it plays a part.
paul.mercer
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by paul.mercer »

lwd wrote:
Djoser wrote:...
So we have a potential order of battle:

1 H-39
Bismarck and Tirpitz
1 large aircraft carrier converted from H-39 class hull
1 Graf zeppelin
...
We can also work out a likely meeting place for the engagement(s).

I would assume a similar Atlantic commerce raiding expedition as saw the demise of the Hood and Bismarck, albeit on a much larger scale.
Time Frame? Looks to me like it will have to be at least 43. Restricted to British or combined US British?

If it's as late as 43 the Germans are likely to be spotted shortly after they leave Norway which suggest an engagment to one side or the other of Iceland.
This sounds good!
What line up would you have for the RN - or if the US was involved the RN and US navy?
lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

paul.mercer wrote: ... What line up would you have for the RN
If it was just the RN looking and looking at wiki for info on the Lions and H classes and comparing with the KGV's and Bismarck's if the battle took place infairly early 43 I would expect the RN to have 2 Lions completed and 2 more working up. Since the gaps to both sides of Iceland have to be covered I'd divide the British force into 2 groups. I can see a couple of divisions of the capital ships in those forces.

1) West - 2 KGV's, 1 Lion, Hood, Repulse, and Renown (if at least 2 are available).
2) East - 2 KGV's, 1 Lion, Rodney and/or Nelson, and 4 of the WWI battleships. The slower battleships would be in two groups dividing the opening in thirds so at least one of them has a good chance of joining the fasater ships in the battle.

Another option
1) West 2 KGV's and 2 Lions
2) East 2 KGV's, Rodney and Nelson, (and perhaps some of the WWI battleships)
3) South of Iceland or perhaps in Iceland the battlecruisers which would move which ever way the Germans were thought to be moving.

All forces with a decent supply of escorts.

The carriers would make things a bit trickier if the weather is suitable for flight ops.

If one or two US fast battleships are available they join the Eastern force and both Lions and the battlecruisers go to the West. With the number of radar picket vessels available the British should have a decent chance of concentrating all the fast battleships on the Germans although not before a few hours had passed.
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by Djoser »

lwd wrote:
paul.mercer wrote: ... What line up would you have for the RN
If it was just the RN looking and looking at wiki for info on the Lions and H classes and comparing with the KGV's and Bismarck's if the battle took place infairly early 43 I would expect the RN to have 2 Lions completed and 2 more working up. Since the gaps to both sides of Iceland have to be covered I'd divide the British force into 2 groups. I can see a couple of divisions of the capital ships in those forces.

1) West - 2 KGV's, 1 Lion, Hood, Repulse, and Renown (if at least 2 are available).
2) East - 2 KGV's, 1 Lion, Rodney and/or Nelson, and 4 of the WWI battleships. The slower battleships would be in two groups dividing the opening in thirds so at least one of them has a good chance of joining the fasater ships in the battle.

Another option
1) West 2 KGV's and 2 Lions
2) East 2 KGV's, Rodney and Nelson, (and perhaps some of the WWI battleships)
3) South of Iceland or perhaps in Iceland the battlecruisers which would move which ever way the Germans were thought to be moving.

All forces with a decent supply of escorts.

The carriers would make things a bit trickier if the weather is suitable for flight ops.

If one or two US fast battleships are available they join the Eastern force and both Lions and the battlecruisers go to the West. With the number of radar picket vessels available the British should have a decent chance of concentrating all the fast battleships on the Germans although not before a few hours had passed.
OK now we are talking. Thanks for an excellent hypothetical order of battle for the Brits. I was also thinking maybe an Iceland meeting engagement--and what a battle that could have been!

As for the rest, I've been out having a good time and am definitely not capable of a coherent reply yet.
paul.mercer
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by paul.mercer »

This is getting even better!
Would the RN or US have a carrier or two and if so how would they be deployed?
Of course, now comes the 64 million dollar question, what do all you experts reckon the result would be, after all it would be the biggest fleet action since Jutland?
lwd
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Re: H class Battleships

Post by lwd »

The British are alsmost sure to have at least on CV in the area more likely a couple. If the US is involved I would expect at least a pair of fast battleships with some of the older battleships on convoy duty. Likewise I would expect the US to have a CV or two involved and likely a handfull of British or US CVE's or CVL's. Depending on weather they like the German carriers may not play much of a role. I would expect the Germans to try and breakout in a period where the weather and number of daylight hours minimixed the utility of carriers though.
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