Strategical WW 2 naval scenario

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Strategical WW 2 naval scenario

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all,

I usually do not write much about those hypothesis, however, I am curious to read some opinions on this :

What if :

1) French fleet goes intact on the hands of the Germans.

2) Germans do provide radar and technology ( ammunitions and rangefinders for example ) to the Italian fleet and develop it further more jointly, as well as with the captured French fleet.

3) No Operation Rheinubung is planned so the entire KM fleet with new carriers and cruisers is used to control Baltic area, and Artic convoys to Russia instead of becomimg single raiders on the Atlantic.

4) The above 3 fleets are provided with their own Air Forces.

Assuming the above :

What is going to happen on the Mediterranen sea scenario ?

What is going to happen on the Artic route to supply Russia with convoys ?

What will happen to the Royal Navy ?

What on the Atlantic ?

Overal sea warfare WW 2 scenario impacts ??

So a wider strategical type of question, not a single ship to ship comparison.

As said, .. just curious, ... :think:

Ciao Antonio :D
User avatar
Matthias
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:59 pm
Location: Mailand

Post by Matthias »

Well...

with the control of the route for Lybia, sweeping the British out of Malta, for example, italians would have provided Afrika Korps with the necessary amount of ammunitions and fuel and new tanks, so Rommel would have take control of Egypt.

It's just a hypothesis, obvious..;)
"Wir kämpfen bis zur letzten Granate."

Günther Lütjens
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF »

On the face of it it is a rational long term strategy to follow. The improbability of this is that a short term victory was expected by both Hitler and Mussolini so it was never on the Axis agenda.

In fact as the Axis never had anything properly approaching Grand Strategy the scenario would be impossible to execute.

However if it had come to fruition, expect massive RN reinforcement, plus heavy US involvement.
Allied submarines would also have a much heavier patrol schedule in all these theatres.
One other consideration: Axis fuel shortages would ultimately restrict their operations.
ostriker
Member
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nîmes, Southern France

Re: Strategical WW 2 naval scenario

Post by ostriker »

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
1) French fleet goes intact on the hands of the Germans.
Hi Antonio

- French fleet had already radar.

- What are the unit captured?


Next. It is a very difficult scenario for RN.
Despite the fighting spirit, she has not enough unit to fight two front with so much ennemies.
User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Hi Antonio:

Very interesting scenario, specially because is a strategic one, not the common technical one. :clap:
If the German captured intact the French Fleet and managed to man it (I doubt that the French officers and crews will throw themselves to help their historical antagonists), and if the Germans and Italians manage to cooperate then:
1. The British would be in bigger problems than those they faced. Specially for a 1941 naval campaign. For example: Cape Matapan would had never happen as it happened. We expect the Italian taskforce with some heavy French units attached and using FuMos. Big battle, wow.
2. The KM operating from the Baltic. Are we expecting some other French units working with them? How they past thru Gibraltar: shooting their way out?
3. The Axis Naval Air Arm: the GZ? Anything else?

Very best regards, Antonio.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
User avatar
miro777
Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by miro777 »

hey antonio...
i think we talked about a very similar szenario before...
where the KM takes control of the baltic, the Italian navy takes over the mediterranean and the French fleet controls the coast of France and helps out where it can....(maybe even start interfering with the trade routes)

all this would lead to the British loss...

While the British had ONE fleet, the axis powers have THREE!
none of them could take the RN one on one, but together, they will surely beat her...


adios
miro...

ps: wat about US involvment??
Die See ruft....
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF »

miro777 wrote:hey antonio...
i think we talked about a very similar szenario before...
where the KM takes control of the baltic, the Italian navy takes over the mediterranean and the French fleet controls the coast of France and helps out where it can....(maybe even start interfering with the trade routes)

all this would lead to the British loss...

While the British had ONE fleet, the axis powers have THREE!
none of them could take the RN one on one, but together, they will surely beat her...


adios
miro...
Don't forget that the British hold the geographical central position in all this, control the vital access points to the Atantic, have Coastal Command, submarines while the Axis weakpoint is in airpower.
User avatar
miro777
Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by miro777 »

yes i agree....

the FAA was unique....

yet...u saw how quickly Crete was taken...

if there would have been a more balance in the mediteraenan, then places like Malta and Gibraltar would have been taken...
and with the better supplies Rommel would have probably taken Egypt.
Then england would be out of the medditeraenean...


adios
miro
Die See ruft....
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF »

miro777 wrote:yes i agree....

the FAA was unique....

yet...u saw how quickly Crete was taken...

if there would have been a more balance in the mediteraenan, then places like Malta and Gibraltar would have been taken...
and with the better supplies Rommel would have probably taken Egypt.
Then england would be out of the medditeraenean...


adios
miro

Crete was only just taken, at great cost to the invading paratroops.

Remember if the defenders, who had no air support whatsoever, had clung on to Maleme airfield the Luftwaffe could not then have used it as a reinforcement and supply base. Then the German attack would have spent itself, there were no other paratroop formations available to the Germans to use for follow-up landings.

Malta at that time was far better defended, as was Gibraltar. The Italians had the opportunity on 11th June 1940 and they didn't attack when they could have walked into Malta without needing any help from the Germans.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
miro777
Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by miro777 »

hey
so your point is that...
the Germans would have not taken control of the medditeranean?


adios
miro
Die See ruft....
User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Sea warfare scenario

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Ciao all,

I am glad you like to talk about this scenario.

What I think is that on the short terms, probably Axis forces would have taken a stronger lead on some areas ( Mediterranean, Artic, Baltic ) and maybe would have play a bit better on others ( the Atlantic battle).

But never forget that WW 2 was won as a production+logistic massive effort and the Allied ( USA, GB, etc etc ) had by far the strongest lead on steel production as well as weapons, so they were ready to improve and delivery most modern weapons much faster and on greatest quantities than the Axis forces.

Surely with more ships, technology and aircraft carriers I assume some big naval battles were going to occur, with much closer forces engaged than happened on reality.

What is interesting to realize is that those 4 options were almost entirely available for the Axis forces to be taken on 1939-40, ...... only the first one was debatable and of course the Royal Navy did all they could to avoid French fleet to fall into German hands :think: .

Ciao Antonio :D
User avatar
miro777
Member
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by miro777 »

hey...
yes the war at land was surely won by the production force, especially in the soviet union....(100-1 tank ratio)

yet on the seas...the power was unbalanced for the Germans Fleet Command was expecting the war much later...
it would have been very interesting to see, how the war would have turned of the KM would have been fully ready under the concept if the Z-plan...

adios
miro
Die See ruft....
User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

The German best strategy would have been done everything at hand to come to peace with the Great Britain after the fall of France. Even Barbarossa would have come to a different ending if the Germans wouldn´t have been worrying about the Brits.

But if war´s continuing was unavoidable then, more U-Boats and scrapping the alliance with Japan in order not to piss off FDR when hostilities broke in the Pacific.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Post by RF »

miro777 wrote:hey
so your point is that...
the Germans would have not taken control of the medditeranean?


adios
miro
Yes, not without taking Malta.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Post Reply