Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

[dunmunro]

What do you do next?

I would have minimal fighters on CAP to ward of shadowing aircraft.

At what range does Seetakt detect the raid?

How do they know that some Fulmars are bomb armed and some not?

Suppose there's a layer of cloud at ~10,000ft, how do you use dive and zoom when the attackers can evade into the cloud or fly just below it? This is the North Atlantic and cloud is to be expected.

How do you bring DDs and a CL into the Atlantic and how do you refuel them? Scheer? She reduces formation speed considerably...

The Albacores attacking Tirpitz had to fly straight and level during their torpedo attack runs, here they are dive bombing and are a much more difficult target.

My prediction is that the strike is disrupted. 8 Albacores make their attack runs and score 2 hits, and all 6 Fulmar DBs are able to avoid interception and score 4 more hits. 2 x 500lb and 4 x 250lb hits cause major damage to GZ and wreck her flight deck, while several near misses cause some underwater flooding and a reduction in speed. All KM aircraft in the air must ditch. 10 Albacores and 3 Fulmars are shot down from fighters with several more suffering damage from AA, The Fulmars and Albacores claim 6 kills, with 3 verified by KM records.

With the KM force located, Indomitable recalls her recon flights, and begins preparing 3 spare Albacores and 2 spare Fulmars. An ASV equipped RCAF Canso arrives from Iceland to shadow the KM TG just as the last 109T is forced to ditch...

At a distance of 300nm miles, Tovey orders 29 bomb armed Albacores ( 2 x 500lb, 1 x internal 100igal aux tank) into the air from Victorious and Furious, along with an escort of 12 DT equipped Fulmars.

3 hrs later, just at sunset they commence their bomb runs through heavy flak...3 Albacores are destroyed along with a strafing Fulmar, but 12 more 500lb bombs tear into GZ, and more UW damage occurs from near misses. GZ staggers out of line, with severe fires. Two 500lb SAP bombs explode against her armoured deck, but splinters still tear into her boilers and funnel uptakes...her speed falls off to 12 knots...

5 hrs later, 12 torpedo armed Albacores TO from Indomitable to make a night attack with orders to sink GZ with torpedoes...

[srgt rock]

-->How do they know that some Fulmars are bomb armed and some not?

You stated that in your post. If you mean how do the CAP fighters, by location in the sky. Escorting fighters would be at a higher altitude than the bomb armed Fulmars. The German fighter director would not know what type of aircraft were in each group. They would intercept the lower altitude formations.

-->Suppose there's a layer of cloud at ~10,000ft, how do you use dive and zoom when the attackers can evade into the cloud or fly just below it? This is the North Atlantic and cloud is to be expected.

The initial bounce will be made with the Albacores in sight. Some might evade into the clouds, that is why I speculated only 6 would be shot down.

-->How do you bring DDs and a CL into the Atlantic and how do you refuel them? Scheer? She reduces formation speed considerably...

Scheer can make 28 knots. She would slow down the formation by one knot. All ships refueled by supply group just before breakout attempt.

-->The Albacores attacking Tirpitz had to fly straight and level during their torpedo attack runs, here they are dive bombing and are a much more difficult target.

They still need to maintain a fixed approach during their dives. By the way, how much practice did the British have in dive Bombing?

-->My prediction is that the strike is disrupted.

Agreed.

-->8 Albacores make their attack runs and score 2 hits, and all 6 Fulmar DBs are able to avoid interception and score 4 more hits. 2 x 500lb and 4 x 250lb hits cause major damage to GZ and wreck her flight deck

How much dive bombing training have the Indomitable air groups had to this point?

What type of fuses are used on the bombs? Delayed action fuses cause internal damage but flight operations do not necessarily cease. Only instantaneous fuses like the US Navy used early in the war caused extensive flight deck damage. Examination of the early war carrier battles in the Pacific illustrate the point.


I do not think there would be any significant damage inflicted upon GZ. Lets examine the results of the Kirkness raid in Jul comprising a similar number of aircraft, 20 Albacores and 9 Fulmars, against stationary targets. The losses to fighters and flak were 11 Albacores and 2 Fulmars. The Germans suffered only slight damage.

--> All KM aircraft in the air must ditch. 10 Albacores and 3 Fulmars are shot down from fighters with several more suffering damage from AA, The Fulmars and Albacores claim 6 kills, with 3 verified by KM records.

Our expected aircraft losses are surprising similar. I do not agree that GZ flight ops impaired.

-->An ASV equipped RCAF Canso arrives from Iceland to shadow the KM TG

And is driven off by CAP

-->At a distance of 300nm miles, Tovey orders 29 bomb armed Albacores ( 2 x 500lb, 1 x internal 100igal aux tank) into the air from Victorious and Furious, along with an escort of 12 DT equipped Fulmars.

That attack range is very long.

-->3 hrs later,

How do they cover the 300+ miles, with a tail wind

-->just at sunset they commence their bomb runs through heavy flak...3 Albacores are destroyed along with a strafing Fulmar, but 12 more 500lb bombs tear into GZ, and more UW damage occurs from near misses. GZ staggers out of line, with severe fires. Two 500lb SAP bombs explode against her armoured deck, but splinters still tear into her boilers and funnel uptakes...her speed falls off to 12 knots...

5 hrs later, 12 torpedo armed Albacores TO from Indomitable to make a night attack with orders to sink GZ with torpedoes...

5 hours later, the Northern Battle Group in past the Iceland-Faroes Gap heading for the open waters of the Atlantic.

PS: I do not know how to set quotes from other post apart so I used --> to indicate quotes from another post.

[dunmunro]

First off the idea of the KM bringing destroyers and CLs into the North Atlantic is a non starter. They do not have the range or sea-keeping abilities to keep up with larger ships, especially in the winter, where hurricane force winds could be expected. Given the lack of a supply ship network, even the larger ships will be very short of fuel before long.

Why would there be a bounce at all? If the Albacores fly just under the cloud layer they cannot be bounced from above, ditto for the Fulmars. There is very little likelihood of an initial surprise attack by CAP. If the raid is detected at 30nm, there will only be ~15mins warning before the Albacores attack and only ~8 mins before the Fulmars are in their bomb run. There won't be time for GZ to launch all her fighters, and for them to make coordinated attacks prior to the bomb runs. The Albcores would probably climb into the cloud and then make individual bomb runs. I think I've been quite generous in assuming that only 8 of 18 Albacores make their bomb runs. Again, in typical cloudy conditions, the Fulmar's extra pair of eyes and heavy firepower will make it a very dangerous opponent.

In this scenario, the FAA is aware that the KM has an active CV and their training and preparations will be adjusted accordingly. All the staff studies that were done regarding a carrier war with the IJN will be dusted off and studied carefully. The staff recommendations for combat against the IJN led to the development of the Skua (remember the Konigsburg), Swordfish, Albacore, and Barracuda, all of which were highly competent dive bombers, and the Fulmar was also stressed for DB attacks, and could deliver a 500lb bomb at speeds of 360 knots in a 60 deg dive. I expect that FAA competence in DB attacks will range from excellent to fair, with an expected hit rate of ~15%, especially given that GZ is a big target. I would expect that there would be a mix of bomb types and fuzes used, but all the Fulmar's 250lb bombs would use instantaneous fuzing. Additionally, and unlike DB attacks on most targets, the FAA pilots can release their bombs low, because they are not trying to penetrate an armoured deck which requires a higher altitude release, but instead just need to score hits to knock out flight operations. At Kirkenes there simply wasn't much for the Albacores to hit, and they were all armed with torpedoes, which required a low and slow attack profile, especially given the terrain etc. The Luftwaffe was also using Me110 fighters at Kirkenes (and claimed 6 Albacores) which had more firepower than the 109T and the Albacores ran into heavy flak before they even reached the vicinity of the harbour, as they were flying a low altitude approach, which is non standard tactics for the FAA, which typically called for a medium altitude approach, then a near vertical dive, then torpedo release.

The Albacore is a very underrated and misunderstood aircraft. It was fully stressed for dive bombing and had dive brakes and could dive vertically at up to 215 knots. It was used extensively as a DB in the Med. It had an internal fuel capacity of 193 igals, and could carry a 100 igal internal aux tank and/or a 116 gallon external DT. Range with a torpedo and the internal tank was 800nm. Range with full internal and external fuel was 1150nm.

With 2 x 500lb bombs, the Albacore could cruise at ~90 knots IAS at 15000ft, or about 115 knots TAS, so 300nm in about 3 hrs.

[Pandora]

you guys are assuming both carrier forces get in contact but I dont think it is that easy. this is not Midway were both sides look for battle. here we have the British wanting to engage and the Germans trying to avoid contact and decide when and where to break into open ocean at a time of their choosing. GZ and TP would make a nice fast couple with air cover and good Flak (forget about smaller escorts). can the RN intercept them in time with a strong force? remember the RN has to spread its forces to cover different places. Perhaps a British carrier can get in range but the chance of a successful air strike are very limited in my opinion, and the German planes are better too.

[Paul L]

you guys are assuming both carrier forces get in contact but I dont think it is that easy. this is not Midway were both sides look for battle. here we have the British wanting to engage and the Germans trying to avoid contact and decide when and where to break into open ocean at a time of their choosing. GZ and TP would make a nice fast couple with air cover and good Flak (forget about smaller escorts). can the RN intercept them in time with a strong force? remember the RN has to spread its forces to cover different places. Perhaps a British carrier can get in range but the chance of a successful air strike are very limited in my opinion, and the German planes are better too.

Amen! people don't seem to understand just how difficult detection at sea is!


http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/tp-ktb1-15mar42.pdf

Reading this account the Albacores were intercepted by an AR 196 launched by the Tirpitz in bad weather and several hit on the Albacores that were driven off. It seems the rest of the Tirpitz Flak did a good job driving off the rest of the TB. With an CV in tandem I doubt any British aircraft will get any hits.

[dunmunro]

Amen! people don't seem to understand just how difficult detection at sea is!


http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/tp-ktb1-15mar42.pdf

Reading this account the Albacores were intercepted by an AR 196 launched by the Tirpitz in bad weather and several hit on the Albacores that were driven off. It seems the rest of the Tirpitz Flak did a good job driving off the rest of the TB. With an CV in tandem I doubt any British aircraft will get any hits.

The later in the war the scenario takes place, the more likely the KM force will be constantly shadowed, especially from the air because of increased numbers of recon aircraft and increased technolgy.

The KM account of the Ar-196/Albacore encounter is interesting as (but not confirmed by FAA sources AFAIK) the FAA shadowers were not driven off and they remained on scene, by using cloud cover. It seems that all Albacore TBs survived to launch their weapons, and it is harder to hit DBs than TBs.

Tirpitz was discovered by Albacore recon patrols, and this is off the coast of Norway, not somewhere off Iceland, in close proximity to RAF and FAA land based air. Victorious was able to launch the Bismarck strike using FAA aircrew who were literally making their first carrier TOs, fly a ~100nm through atrocious weather, and then find and hit Bismarck with a torpedo using their ASV radar.

[Pandora]

The KM account of the Ar-196/Albacore encounter is interesting as (but not confirmed by FAA sources AFAIK) the FAA shadowers were not driven off and they remained on scene, by using cloud cover. It seems that all Albacore TBs survived to launch their weapons, and it is harder to hit DBs than TBs.

lol, the recon Albacore running for their survival could see Tirpitz through the cloud. they were driven north by the Arado and Tirpitz was going south.
the attack failed in any case.

Tirpitz was discovered by Albacore recon patrols, and this is off the coast of Norway, not somewhere off Iceland, in close proximity to RAF and FAA land based air. Victorious was able to launch the Bismarck strike using FAA aircrew who were literally making their first carrier TOs, fly a ~100nm through atrocious weather, and then find and hit Bismarck with a torpedo using their ASV radar.

Victorius was able to launch a strike because Bismarck position was given all the time by shadowing Suffolk, Norfolk, etc for the last 24 hours. Victorius had to leave all his escorts behind to get to launching position.

[Paul L]

Yes but the lack of any hits by the Albacores was in no small part due to the intensity of the flak and what little aircover they put up. With much better air cover, they will not do any better than the March 1942 attacks.

[dunmunro]

Yes but the lack of any hits by the Albacores was in no small part due to the intensity of the flak and what little aircover they put up. With much better air cover, they will not do any better than the March 1942 attacks.

The ar-196s played no part in the stopping the TB attack. The TB attack failed for a number of reasons: Victorious had many of her Albacores assigned to recon, Tirptiz was heading directly into a 25 to 40 knot wind, and this hampered the TB attack. Tovey in his despatch states:

11. The same low visibility which hampered
the TIRPITZ, and severe icing conditions
which precluded the use of our aircraft for
reconnaissance, prevented me from bringing
her to action ; but she was attacked by the aircraft
of the VICTORIOUS off the Lofoten
Islands, on her way back to Trondheim,
apparently without success. She immediately
took refuge at Narvik and completed her
passage on 13th March
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/L ... /39041.pdf

I think Tovey is saying that the Fulmars could not operate safely in the prevailing conditions of low cloud and sub zero weather, and he was forced to allocate his Albacores for recon. According to Paul Kemp (The Russian Convoys 1941-45, paragraph 23), the captain the Tirpitz, Topp and Admiral Ciliax later stated that they thought Tirpitz had been struck by one or two torpedoes that failed to explode (probably because they didn't have time to arm).

[Paul L]

Yes but the lack of any hits by the Albacores was in no small part due to the intensity of the flak and what little aircover they put up. With much better air cover, they will not do any better than the March 1942 attacks.

The ar-196s played no part in the stopping the TB attack. The TB attack failed for a number of reasons: Victorious had many of her Albacores assigned to recon, Tirptiz was heading directly into a 25 to 40 knot wind, and this hampered the TB attack .

Yes many reasons including the presence of Ar-196 and heavy flak from Tirpitz. We see the same event from opposite POV. All factors are contributing.

[dunmunro]

The KM account of the Ar-196/Albacore encounter is interesting as (but not confirmed by FAA sources AFAIK) the FAA shadowers were not driven off and they remained on scene, by using cloud cover. It seems that all Albacore TBs survived to launch their weapons, and it is harder to hit DBs than TBs.

lol, the recon Albacore running for their survival could see Tirpitz through the cloud. they were driven north by the Arado and Tirpitz was going south.
the attack failed in any case.

Tirpitz was discovered by Albacore recon patrols, and this is off the coast of Norway, not somewhere off Iceland, in close proximity to RAF and FAA land based air. Victorious was able to launch the Bismarck strike using FAA aircrew who were literally making their first carrier TOs, fly a ~100nm through atrocious weather, and then find and hit Bismarck with a torpedo using their ASV radar.

Victorious was able to launch a strike because Bismarck position was given all the time by shadowing Suffolk, Norfolk, etc for the last 24 hours. Victorius had to leave all his escorts behind to get to launching position.

Looking through my library I found Convoy, by Kemp and he does provide an account of the encounter between the Albacores and the Ar-196. 6 Albacore recon aircraft were flown off and after the initial sighting they all converged on Tirpitz so that at one point there were 4 Albacores, 4F, 4H, 4L and 5K (call signs) shadowing Ciliax's ships. Only 5K received some damage, but Tirpitz was shadowed to the limit of their fuel endurance. 4F was attacked several times by the Ar-196 but used cloud cover to evade and continued to shadow throughout the raid. Tirpitz was actually located by several Luftwaffe aircraft as well, including an Fw-200, but the Luftwaffe never found Tovey. The Ar-196 had no impact on the strike at all.

Against Bismarck, after Victorious's Swordfish launched they were on their own and still had to make their way to the target unaided, and it was only ASV that allowed Bismarck to be located (ditto for Tirpitz).

[dunmunro]

Tirpitz was actually located by several Luftwaffe aircraft as well, including an Fw-200, but the Luftwaffe never found Tovey. The Ar-196 had no impact on the strike at all.

.

Actually, the Luftwaffe did find Tovey later that day and 3 Ju-88s made an unsuccessful attack on Victorious.

[Pandora]

Looking through my library I found Convoy, by Kemp and he does provide an account of the encounter between the Albacores and the Ar-196. 6 Albacore recon aircraft were flown off and after the initial sighting they all converged on Tirpitz so that at one point there were 4 Albacores, 4F, 4H, 4L and 5K (call signs) shadowing Ciliax's ships. Only 5K received some damage, but Tirpitz was shadowed to the limit of their fuel endurance. 4F was attacked several times by the Ar-196 but used cloud cover to evade and continued to shadow throughout the raid. Tirpitz was actually located by several Luftwaffe aircraft as well, including an Fw-200, but the Luftwaffe never found Tovey. The Ar-196 had no impact on the strike at all.

there you have it, 2 Albacores engaged by the Arado. if I read the report correctly the Arado was sent against 2 shadowing Albacores and not against the main striking force. those 2 Albacores were driven away. if there were other 4 Albacores close and were able to shadow thats what is expected from them. nobody expects a single Arado to disrupt a group of 18 enemy aircraft but a couple of Me-109 could.

Against Bismarck, after Victorious's Swordfish launched they were on their own and still had to make their way to the target unaided, and it was only ASV that allowed Bismarck to be located (ditto for Tirpitz).

the swordfish headed in the right direction because they had previous information as to where Bismarck was. whitout being sighted first by other warships (Suffolk, Norfolk POW, etc) they would never have found Bismarck. I dont think ASV has an accurate range of 100 miles.

[srgt rock]

As I stated in the proposal for Operation Rapier, this is intended as an all out effort by the KM to disrupt the British convoy routes.

Emden is the longest range of all the German CLs. She has a proven power plant. Emden has been world tours during the 30s. She would hold up as well as any of the older British cruisers did. Admiral Carls called for her to be used operationally. I agree and include her.

The Surface Strike Group op plan would have Tirpitz engage any convoy escorts and Scheer and Emden cound Then launch slashing attacks on the convoy.

The German DDs are short range but they were used in the Arctic. They would have been refueled by the Support Group prior to the breakout attempt and could have been refueled by GZ. My carrier pilots are the greatest asset in the success of Rapier so I would want a plane guard ship escorting GZ at all times. The op plan for Rapier calls for the Carrier Task Force to operate independent of the Surface Strike Group at times, I would want the DDs available to engage any chance met surface ship while GZ uses her speed to disengage.

Fuel supplies for Rapier are to be provided by the Support Group which included Trosschiff Nordmarck and Dithmarchen which together could carry over 20,000 tons of fuel. Rapier op plan calls for the Support Group to be following the combined task forces as they breakout. Also, Uckermarck is available on the French Biscay coast and could provide another 10,000 tons of fuel.

The Support Group would operate in conduction with the other ships of the Northern Battle Group. Think of them as a rally point.

[dunmunro]

the swordfish headed in the right direction because they had previous information as to where Bismarck was. whitout being sighted first by other warships (Suffolk, Norfolk POW, etc) they would never have found Bismarck. I dont think ASV has an accurate range of 100 miles.

The information as to Bismarck's initial location could have have provided from any number of sources - that's the main point. The ability of the Swordfish to fly to the correct location was only made possible because ASV allowed the Swordfish to detect surface targets within a 20 to 40 nm range of the searching aircraft.