Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

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dunmunro
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro »

dunmunro wrote:
Dave Saxton wrote:
Development of Hohentwiel started in 1938 at the C. Lorenz AG in Berlin. The device was originally planned as ground-based fire control radar for the Luftwaffe. As Telefunken with its "Würzburg" device won the tender, the development of Hohentwiel stopped in 1939. In 1941 development was restarted as air based search radar with different antenna set.
Yes, Hohentwiel was a totally original design.

Seetakt could be and was used for operational AW from the beginning and throughout the war, both at sea and on land. This was not experimental use. And Freya was essentially Seetakt converted to operation on a longer wave length. Seetakt came first, then Freya. However, the Germans rejected the use of metric wave lengths at sea.

Can you provide some specific dates and circumstances where Seetakt was used as an AW radar at sea?

When were the first 1/2 dozen Luftwaffe ASV radars used operationally?
In 1941, improved Condors with longer range
had four hours on-station time, increasing the search area by about 25 percent. When
the Condors gained a search-radar capability with the FuG 200 Hohentwiel radar in
December 1942
and their on-station endurance doubled....

Fw200 Condor Vs Atlantic Convoy, p30
So Luftwaffe ASV was very late on the scene.

.
delcyros
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by delcyros »

somehow my response went into the data-nirvana. I´m not going to repeat that effort.

I am convinced that the first airborne radarset was carried in 1940 on Luftwaffe Do-18D´s. But I have to search for where I read that and that will be a messy job...
Telefunken produced the first WÜRZBURG set´s in 1938 and acc. to Price, p.60, installed a smaller, airborne version of this set in about the same time in a Ju-52 for testing.
Again, the first operational use was later, with Do-18.
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro »

delcyros wrote:somehow my response went into the data-nirvana. I´m not going to repeat that effort.

I am convinced that the first airborne radarset was carried in 1940 on Luftwaffe Do-18D´s. But I have to search for where I read that and that will be a messy job...
Telefunken produced the first WÜRZBURG set´s in 1938 and acc. to Price, p.60, installed a smaller, airborne version of this set in about the same time in a Ju-52 for testing.
Again, the first operational use was later, with Do-18.
There's an article on the Fug200 here:

http://aobauer.home.xs4all.nl/FuG200%20 ... Jucker.pdf

I don't doubt that the Luftwaffe experimented with ASV radar, but it is a far cry from experimental use to operational use. Additionally fitting ASV radar to an aircraft was not an easy task, and it can have unpredictable effects on aircraft performance, so assuming that it could be carried and used operationally on an Fi-167 in Nov 1941 is a bit of a stretch.
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by srgt rock »

According to Hugh Popham in Sea Flight, no Indomitable aircraft transferred to any other carriers.

Grant Indomitable is still in home waters.

GZ has AW radar but remove ASV radar from any Fi 167s.

As far as Illustrious and Formidable, what air groups would they embark?
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro »

srgt rock wrote:According to Hugh Popham in Sea Flight, no Indomitable aircraft transferred to any other carriers.

Grant Indomitable is still in home waters.

GZ has AW radar but remove ASV radar from any Fi 167s.

As far as Illustrious and Formidable, what air groups would they embark?
The problem with winter CV scenario in the North Atlantic is that the weather makes the whole thing unpredictable in the extreme:

Here's an RN task force in the winter of 1941/42 somewhere off Iceland:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwjrf0gZjIE

Lets assume that Indomitable finds GZ and GZ manages to find Indomitable, more or less at the same time some where near Iceland at a range of ~150 nm. Weather permitting, the RN would launch an immediate strike, say 18 (of 24) Albacores armed with 2 x 500lb bombs escorted by 9 (of 12)Fulmars 6 of which are armed with 2 x 250lb bombs with 9 Sea Hurricanes remaining for CAP. 9 aircraft were assigned to recon.

What is GZ's air complement?

Now subtract 12 recon capable aircraft to enable your successful search w/o ASV radar.

What do you do next?
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by delcyros »

Wouldn´t ALBACORE´s use torpedoes instead? Shouldn´t You substract the screen of recon´ airplanes to actually find GZ and track her in the first place?
Do you really assume 100% aviability figures for airstrikes?

My guess would be -judging from known period RN airstrike sizes:

6 SEA HURRICANE CAP
-----
8 FUMLAR-II operating as strike escort
18 ALBACORE armed with torpedoes as strike force
-----
total airstrike size: 26 airplanes, rather large compared what VICTORIOUS or ARK ROYAL were able to muster against BISMARCK or what VICTORIOUS was able to send against TIRPITZ.
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro »

delcyros wrote:Wouldn´t ALBACORE´s use torpedoes instead? Shouldn´t You substract the screen of recon´ airplanes to actually find GZ and track her in the first place?
Do you really assume 100% aviability figures for airstrikes?

My guess would be -judging from known period RN airstrike sizes:

6 SEA HURRICANE CAP
-----
8 FUMLAR-II operating as strike escort
18 ALBACORE armed with torpedoes as strike force
-----
total airstrike size: 26 airplanes, rather large compared what VICTORIOUS or ARK ROYAL were able to muster against BISMARCK or what VICTORIOUS was able to send against TIRPITZ.
RN doctrine was to destroy enemy CVs with DB attacks, see:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3460#p41103

The Albacore was a fully capable dive bomber.

When Indomitable sailed east in Dec 1941 her complement was 24 Albacores, 12 Fulmars and 9 or 12 (depending on the source) Sea Hurricanes.

I subtracted 9 aircraft for recon (6 x Albacores and 3 Fulmars) but of course ASV equipped aircraft from Iceland would also be patrolling and they could also have made the initial sighting.

Edit: I would only launch TBs after the carrier is crippled and/or at night.

Victorious and Ark Royal were hampered by weather conditions and had to settle for smaller strikes..
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by delcyros »

VICTORIOUS and FURIOUS together just managed to get 20 BARRACUDA´s and 3 CORSAIR´s striking TIRPITZ in 1944 in the first strike with the second beeing conducted by another 20 BARRACUDA and 3 CORSAIR. That was an all-out effort, the principal fightercover had to be provided by the escort carriers SEARCHER, EMPEROR and PURSUER.

INDOMITABLE isn´t much larger than VICTORIOUS, yet in service, VICTORIUS was able to muster only a 12 ALBACORE large airstrike against Tirpitz in good weather off Norway.

Yet you suggest that INDOMITABLE alone can muster an airstrike about twice to three times that big than VICTORIOUS´s and bigger even than the five RN carriers single strikes against TIRPITZ in operation Tungsten?
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by Dave Saxton »

dunmunro wrote: Can you provide some specific dates and circumstances where Seetakt was used as an AW radar at sea?
Sure, Sept 1938 on Deutschland while on combat operations during the Spanish Civil War.

I dug up some Luftwaffe data amonst my stuff that show operational Luftwaffe Marine Bombers units taking delivery of ASV radar equipped aircraft from July 1941. This doesn't seem to square with this secondary account quoted above:
In 1941, improved Condors with longer range
had four hours on-station time, increasing the search area by about 25 percent. When
the Condors gained a search-radar capability with the FuG 200 Hohentwiel radar in
December 1942 and their on-station endurance doubled....
Fw200 Condor Vs Atlantic Convoy, p30
But perhaps it was the Telefunken ASV radar instead of the Lorenz in this case? Also there were other aircraft being equipped with ASV radar as well as the Kondors. JU-88s and marine patrol aircraft such as the B&V-138 for example. But I don't see why it matters in a hypothetical scenario? If they needed operational ASV for carrier operations in 1941 they could have attained it.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by Pandora »

I think Graf Zeppelin role wouldnt be direct attacks to destroy enemy warships but to give support to Tirpitz for attack on enemy supply lines, convoys. just like Bismarck role was not to attack enemy battleships unless absolutely neccesary. It is the Royal Navy that has to incercept the Germans and not otherwise. Graf Zeppelin should stay with Tirpitz most of the time, but British carriers must leave escorts behind if they want to get in position to launch air strikes. it all depends on when the German force is discovered. example if TP and GZ are in Denmark strait when first sighted but British carriers still off Faroe Islands no way they will ever catch up. Royal Navy must spread his forces to cover lots of places like they did against Bismarck. it is easy to say lets assume GZ is found by 2 British carriers, but first we must think how did they get there in the first place. Royal Navy had to deploy everthing it had to hunt Bismarck, now add GZ and the scenario can only be worst for them.
my opinion
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro »

delcyros wrote:VICTORIOUS and FURIOUS together just managed to get 20 BARRACUDA´s and 3 CORSAIR´s striking TIRPITZ in 1944 in the first strike with the second beeing conducted by another 20 BARRACUDA and 3 CORSAIR. That was an all-out effort, the principal fightercover had to be provided by the escort carriers SEARCHER, EMPEROR and PURSUER.

INDOMITABLE isn´t much larger than VICTORIOUS, yet in service, VICTORIUS was able to muster only a 12 ALBACORE large airstrike against Tirpitz in good weather off Norway.

Yet you suggest that INDOMITABLE alone can muster an airstrike about twice to three times that big than VICTORIOUS´s and bigger even than the five RN carriers single strikes against TIRPITZ in operation Tungsten?
A striking force consisting of 12 Albacores
of No. 827 Squadron and 8 Albacores of No. 828
Squadron was flown off in one range at 1400 on
30th July. All aircraft were armed with torpedoes
fitted with duplex .pistols set -to non-contact
at 14 feet. At 1430 a fighter escort of
9 Fulmars of No. 809 Squadron, and a fighter
patrol of 3 Fulmars of 809 Squadron was flown
off, the former Having been ordered to over-
,take the striking force en route for the objective

and the latter to patrol over the 'Fleet...

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/L ... /38300.pdf (appendix II)

In June 1944, Illustrious launched 39 ( 15 Barracudas and 24 Corsairs) aircraft in one range, and at one point had 51 aircraft airborne, however by then her flight deck had been extended 85ft further than Victorious in July 1941.

You might thinking of Furious which had to fly off 24 strike aircraft, 9 x Albacores, 9 x Swordfish 6 x Fulmar ( bomb armed), in 3 ranges against Petsamo, but all within 36 minutes, because of her short flight deck.
However, I would have directed that the 3 non-bomb armed Fulmars be launched along with the Albacores and the 6 others be ranged as a separate strike. This should be possible because Indomitable's usable flight deck was slightly longer than on Victorious. Additionally my Albacore strike have less bomb ( 2 X 500lb versus 1 x 1650lb torpedo) weight and the aircraft can use a shorter TO run.
Last edited by dunmunro on Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro »

Pandora wrote:I think Graf Zeppelin role wouldnt be direct attacks to destroy enemy warships but to give support to Tirpitz for attack on enemy supply lines, convoys. just like Bismarck role was not to attack enemy battleships unless absolutely neccesary. It is the Royal Navy that has to incercept the Germans and not otherwise. Graf Zeppelin should stay with Tirpitz most of the time, but British carriers must leave escorts behind if they want to get in position to launch air strikes. it all depends on when the German force is discovered. example if TP and GZ are in Denmark strait when first sighted but British carriers still off Faroe Islands no way they will ever catch up. Royal Navy must spread his forces to cover lots of places like they did against Bismarck. it is easy to say lets assume GZ is found by 2 British carriers, but first we must think how did they get there in the first place. Royal Navy had to deploy everthing it had to hunt Bismarck, now add GZ and the scenario can only be worst for them.
my opinion
Could be, but the KM and Lufwaffe went to the trouble to prepare 3 types of aircraft for carrier operations; Bf-109t, Ju-87C and Fi-167. I suspect that they would actually carry one squadron of each type (~14 each).

Why do the RN carriers have to leave their escorts behind? In this scenario the KM supply network has been greatly depleted and extended high speed runs will leave the KM ships dangerously short of fuel, especially if FAA recon sights the KM tankers first...
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by dunmunro »

Dave Saxton wrote:
But perhaps it was the Telefunken ASV radar instead of the Lorenz in this case? Also there were other aircraft being equipped with ASV radar as well as the Kondors. JU-88s and marine patrol aircraft such as the B&V-138 for example. But I don't see why it matters in a hypothetical scenario? If they needed operational ASV for carrier operations in 1941 they could have attained it.
I am trying to base my RN/FAA response on historically accurate capabilites; Certainly the RN/FAA had lots of "what-if" capabilities as well, but then the number of possible variants from the HTL approaches the infinite.
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by srgt rock »

Pandora wrote:I think Graf Zeppelin role wouldnt be direct attacks to destroy enemy warships but to give support to Tirpitz for attack on enemy supply lines, convoys. just like Bismarck role was not to attack enemy battleships unless absolutely neccesary. It is the Royal Navy that has to incercept the Germans and not otherwise. Graf Zeppelin should stay with Tirpitz most of the time, but British carriers must leave escorts behind if they want to get in position to launch air strikes. it all depends on when the German force is discovered. example if TP and GZ are in Denmark strait when first sighted but British carriers still off Faroe Islands no way they will ever catch up. Royal Navy must spread his forces to cover lots of places like they did against Bismarck. it is easy to say lets assume GZ is found by 2 British carriers, but first we must think how did they get there in the first place. Royal Navy had to deploy everthing it had to hunt Bismarck, now add GZ and the scenario can only be worst for them.
my opinion
The op plan for the Northern Battle Group IS TO NOT ATTACK THE BRITISH CARRIERS. As the German Admiral in command of the Northern Battle Group, I would aim to destroy as many of the British Carrier AIRCRAFT as possible. My fighters are concentrated over the Battle Group to provide the strongest possible CAP> The Iceland-Faroes Gap the area the Battle Group in going to use because there is more room and better weather.
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Re: Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin 1941

Post by srgt rock »

Lets assume that Indomitable finds GZ and GZ manages to find Indomitable, more or less at the same time some where near Iceland at a range of ~150 nm. Weather permitting, the RN would launch an immediate strike, say 18 (of 24) Albacores armed with 2 x 500lb bombs escorted by 9 (of 12)Fulmars 6 of which are armed with 2 x 250lb bombs with 9 Sea Hurricanes remaining for CAP. 9 aircraft were assigned to recon.

What is GZ's air complement?
16 190T (a full squadron and a stab staffel) {I'm using the German term for the 4 plane group my spelling may be wrong}
24 Ju 87
4 Fi 167

w/4 Fi 167 on Nordmarck and 2 109T on Tirpitz mounted on their catapult trolleys for immediate replacement of losses.
Now subtract 12 recon capable aircraft to enable your successful search w/o ASV radar.
I would only be using the 4 Fi 167 to search. I am only looking for the surface patrol ships in my path.
What do you do next?
I would have minimal fighters on CAP to ward of shadowing aircraft. No more than 4 fighters would have been committed to this leaving me 12 for strike intervention. I would know from radio intercepts I had been located and had not shaken off my shadowing aircraft. I would have a fairly good idea about a time frame I could expect attack to begin. Lets say 8 fighters aloft, 2 staffels, with a third on deck at ready 5.

Seetakt detects the incoming strike and the fighter director vectors one staffel to each of the bomber groups. (the bomb armed Fulmars and the Albacores) The ready 5 fighters will be launched. The 3 Fulmars escorting would be ignored. I would think any remaining bomb armed Fulmars that survived the first bounce, would immediately jettison their bombs to try to engage the 109s.

The staffel attacking the Albacores would be using dive and zoom attack method against such a slow aircraft. One plane shot down per 109 maybe even two shot down or damaged (one each per pass). Average that to say 6 taken out of the attack group by the first staffel. The ready 5 staffel would probably get only one pass at the Albacores so subtrack 2 to 4 more. That leaves 8-12 Albacores after CAP interception. These planes have to fly through the combined flak from Tirpitz, Scheer , Graf Zeppelin, Emden and 2 DDs. Only GZ will need to maneuver to avoid bombs. The remaining ships would be in a solid ring formation around GZ. Tirpitz shot down 2 of the 12 attacking Albacores in Mar 42 and she was maneuvering to avoid torpedoes. Of the planes that can break through the flak, they would not be in a coherent formation. GZ would most likely be able to maneuver to avoid the bombs. Outcome, little or no damage to GZ. Half of the attacking aircraft lost. Four 109s lost in combat or on landing.
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