KGv class with different guns

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
Much has been said about the effectiveness or otherwise of the British 14".
How about a senario where the KGv class were armed with either 8 x 15", 8 x 16" or even 9 x 15" or 9 x 16" in conventional order for the 8 guns i.e two turrets fore & aft, or two fore & one aft for the 9 (if that were possibe).
Would that have promoted them to super battleship status and would they be a match foe almost anything?

[19kilo]

Closest thing would have been Lion class. A bigger version of CageyV with 16in guns.

[Gary]

KGV enjoyed good armour protection.
A heavier main battery would of course been welcomed but I dont suppose Bismarck would have sank any better or that North Cape would have been changed much

[paul.mercer]

KGV enjoyed good armour protection.
A heavier main battery would of course been welcomed but I dont suppose Bismarck would have sank any better or that North Cape would have been changed much

Gentlemen,
Thanks for your replies.
Given that Renown caused significant damage to Gneisneau with her 6 x15" surely a KGv class with similar (+ 2 extra) or with larger 16" would be more than a match for Scharnhorst and an equel if not superior match for Bismarck or even take on an an Iowa with some chance of winning?

[Bgile]

KGV enjoyed good armour protection.
A heavier main battery would of course been welcomed but I dont suppose Bismarck would have sank any better or that North Cape would have been changed much

Gentlemen,
Thanks for your replies.
Given that Renown caused significant damage to Gneisneau with her 6 x15" surely a KGv class with similar (+ 2 extra) or with larger 16" would be more than a match for Scharnhorst and an equel if not superior match for Bismarck or even take on an an Iowa with some chance of winning?

Well, a KGV class defeated Scharnhorst with 14" guns, so I imagine 16" wouldn't have made her less capable. The twins really were at a disadvantage against contemporary battleships.

As to fighting an Iowa, I believe Dunmunro has argued that the latter were fatally flawed and that a KGV as actually constructed with 14" guns would have the advantage, so of course with 16" ... all the better.

[Dave Saxton]

I must of missed this Iowa vs KG5 debate?

Anyway, R&R provide a survey of the various design alternatives of the KGV considered. They determined that 16" guns would require undesirable compromizes in either protection, or speed, or both, without an increase in standard displacement. The 9x15" design could be had without unwanted compromizes and would have produced the "most balanced design" according to the studies. The 15" gun would be an all new 15"/45, and not the existing 15"/42 as used by the Warspite and Hood...ect... However, many in the British Gov and a few in the RN wanted to obtain a new gun caliber limit of 14" for battleships. Therefore 12x14" was adopted, later ammended to 10x14".

Perhaps all new triple turrets would have been less problematic than the quads?

In terms of penetrative power, a larger caliber and heavier shell isn't necessarilly significantly better among similar calibers. For penetration of face hardened armour, such as belts, velocity is the more important factor. Would the 15"/45 have greater MV than a 14"/45? The heavier 15" shell will loose velocity at a lesser rate as it goes farther down range, nevertheless. In terms of oblique striking performance, such as decks, the more important factor is the head shape of the shell's main body, and the 15" projectile will likely have the same less than optimal head shape as the other British battleship shells. I don't see a big difference in fire power over the historical KGV.

[Bgile]

I was assuming KGV with bigger guns would be greater displacement, but realize now that's silly since they were treaty ships.

[Gary]

Whilst 14 inch was considered undergunned for a modern BB, I think that the mechanical problems (of the quads) suffered by the KG5 class are what really puts people off them.
Had it not been for the problems, people would probably view it as a pretty decent naval weapon

The 2700 lbs super heavy USN 16 incher was of course more powerful but as someone pointed out, putting something like on KG5 would sacrifice some of the great protection she enjoyed.
I wonder if the war had gone on for longer and the need for heavy surface units was still paramount wether the British would attempt to construct a heavy 14inch shell much like they did for HMS Queen Mary (13.5 inch) in WW1?

[lwd]

Couldn't they have mounted 3 twin turrets with 16" guns and kept the same armor? Of course it wouldn't be a balanced design at that point.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Well, a KGV class defeated Scharnhorst with 14" guns, so I imagine 16"

Well... KGV plus several other ships surrounded and defeated Scharnhorst. No a single battleship defeated this german vessel.

[lwd]

Well, a KGV class defeated Scharnhorst with 14" guns, so I imagine 16"

Well... KGV plus several other ships surrounded and defeated Scharnhorst. No a single battleship defeated this german vessel.

Renown defeated her and her sister. As for KGV I wasn't aware she ever even engaged Scharnhorst. In her final action she would likely have survived in the absence of the Duke of York but the presence of the latter was enough to defeat her in any case. The combination of ships doomed her.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Lee,

In the particular case of Renown with the Twins I do believe that the Germans had orders to avoid any engagement and they acted accordingly so. Of course I could be mistaken because about this episode I read more than a year ago. However I think the information on that can be found in Raven & Roberts, at least. If not mistaken Scharnhorst hit her first and then Renown hit Gneisenau destroying the FC director, all the while the Germans were disengaging taking advantage of foul weather and superior speed.

Regards,

Karl

[paul.mercer]

Gentlemen,
Many thanks for your replies.
What would the result be with a fully worked up KGv class armed with the tried and trusted 8 x 15" and with the radar & the range finders available at the the time on both ships - on a one to one fight?
In my humble opinion it would end in a draw with both ships receiving heavy damage and retiring. what is your expert opinions?

[Bgile]

Gentlemen,
Many thanks for your replies.
What would the result be with a fully worked up KGv class armed with the tried and trusted 8 x 15" and with the radar & the range finders available at the the time on both ships - on a one to one fight?
In my humble opinion it would end in a draw with both ships receiving heavy damage and retiring. what is your expert opinions?

Basically, you are talking about Vanguard vs Bismarck. Vanguard is a larger KGV with 8-15" guns. Bismarck has more powerful guns and better protection of vitals. Vanguard has more protected volume, i.e. a larger "citadel" and part of that is a deeper belt so less likely to be hit below it.

[Dave Saxton]

Well, a KGV class defeated Scharnhorst with 14" guns, so I imagine 16"

Well... KGV plus several other ships surrounded and defeated Scharnhorst. No a single battleship defeated this german vessel.

Renown defeated her and her sister. .

Actually Luetjens decided to withdraw rather than fight it out with, what he thought was Nelson and several support units (there were nine British destroyers present) at the time, from a rather disadvantagous tactical position.

In her final action she would likely have survived in the absence of the Duke of York but the presence of the latter was enough to defeat her in any case.

Duke of York was forced to cease fire after 90 minutes and few hits, and Scharnhorst had opened the range to 19,500 meters. Adm. Fraser then called off the pursuit in frustration. It wasn't until 15 minutes after Duke of York had ceased fire that the radar plot began to record that Scharnhorst had suddenly lost its speed. The loss of speed allowed torpedo hits from destroyers, which could then catch up, and then further torpedo hits (at least 11 confirmed strikes from 54 fired) from destroyers which sank Scharnhorst. I know we battleship advocates like to think of the romatic idea of another battleship sinking its opponant in a gunnery dual, but that's not really the case.