KGv class with different guns

[dunmunro]

Vanguard has more protected volume, i.e. a larger "citadel" and part of that is a deeper belt so less likely to be hit below it.

Just for the record. How deep was Vanguard's belt?

Same as KGV, which was 8 1/2 feet, with a total belt height of 23 1/2 feet.

Various sources differ on total belt height, but most say 23.5 or 24ft, with ~8.5ft (IIRC) below Design WL(standard) at ~28ft draft. At deep draft about 10ft of belt was above WL, for both KGV and Vanguard. KGV actually has a 1in thicker belt abreast the magazines.

[Dave Saxton]

Well there's not a big disparity in depth below the waterline between the Bismarck class and the KGV after all. About 2 3/4 feet.

[WestPhilly]

On page 4, RF said: But a POW with 8 x 15 inch at DS - the same armament effectively as Hood - might have been interesting....[/quote]

The problem POW had at DS wasn't a lack of 15-inch armament, it was the newness of the ship itself and an inexperienced crew. It was also having Hood as a consort. Replace Hood with KGV and I think almost all would agree the outcome would have been far different. Even Hood with KGV instead of POW - and still allowing for Hood's destruction - would have brought about a different result. KGV would have carried on the fight and inflicted even more damage to Bismarck than did POW. It may have been Bismarck herself breaking off the action to avoid significant damage.

[alecsandros]

The problem POW had at DS wasn't a lack of 15-inch armament, it was the newness of the ship itself and an inexperienced crew. ..

It was also the mechanical problems of the quad turrets, which left the ship with only 5 operational guns 15 minutes into the battle.

[Thorsten Wahl]

It was also the mechanical problems of the quad turrets, which left the ship with only 5 operational guns 15 minutes into the battle.

Replace Hood with KGV and I think almost all would agree the outcome would have been far different.

Operational report No 5 Chase of Bism states for KGV
"...her radar has temporaryly broken down. Mechanical failures in the 14 in. turrets constituted, however, a more serious handicap at this stage. A, Y and B turrets were out of action for 30, and 7 Minutes and a unspecified period, respectively. This corresepond with a reduction of firepower of 80% for 7 minutes and 40% for 23 minutes, wich might have had serious results under less favorable conditions. There were also several breakdowns of individual guns in addition to those affecting the turrets."

Such problems could result in a loss against a ship with full fighting capacity.

[dunmunro]

KGV maintained full output for the first 32min of the action, and by that time Bismarck was largely silenced. A similar performance at DS would probably also silenced Bismarck.

[dunmunro]

Well there's not a big disparity in depth below the waterline between the Bismarck class and the KGV after all. About 2 3/4 feet.

I would guesstimate that it was about 5ft at typical fighting displacements.

[alecsandros]

KGV maintained full output for the first 32min of the action, and by that time Bismarck was largely silenced. A similar performance at DS would probably also silenced Bismarck.

No.
a) If KGV would replace PoW and KGV would take the lead, leaving Hood behind, than Bismarck and PE would focus their fire on him. Since the tactical situation would be the same (Hood shooting very badly, KGV attacking head on, with only 6 guns capable of firing, while the German ships would use all their main guns) it is very probable that KGV would be turned to scrap.
b) In Bismarck's last battle, KGV did not score any critical hits before suffering turret problems. The damage to the fw turrets and fw command center was done by Rodney, while the main director was blown off by Norfolk. So when saying "KGV maintained full output for the first 32min of the action, and by that time Bismarck was largely silenced", one should bear in mind that this is not a causative relationship. I.e. KGV's output did not cause the silence. In fact, KGV fired fewer rounds and had a lower overall gun output throughout the battle than the 15 years older Rodney... But that's another story.

[dunmunro]

During the period of 853 to 913, KGV scored 14 straddles to Rodney's 8 or 9, during a force 6 to 8 gale. KGV's shooting was better than Rodney's as she was a more stable gun platform, had better FC and radar. Bismarck's gunnery doctrine was to engage the ship with the biggest guns, so Hood would always be her target. KGV would have scored many more hits at DS than PoW did.

[Herr Nilsson]

Well there's not a big disparity in depth below the waterline between the Bismarck class and the KGV after all. About 2 3/4 feet.

I would guesstimate that it was about 5ft at typical fighting displacements.

How you did calculate (or estimate) 5 ft? What do you think is a typical fighting displacement for both ships?

[alecsandros]

During the period of 853 to 913, KGV scored 14 straddles to Rodney's 8 or 9, during a force 6 to 8 gale. KGV's shooting was better than Rodney's as she was a more stable gun platform, had better FC and radar. Bismarck's gunnery doctrine was to engage the ship with the biggest guns, so Hood would always be her target. KGV would have scored many more hits at DS than PoW did.

a) When saying "KGV's shooting was better than Rodney's", what source are you using? The historical performance against Bismarck is better for Rodney than for KGV. That you haven't accepted that yet, although you have been presented tons of evidence, is entirely your issue, and I won't be discussing it anymore.

b) The problem isn't of straddles, but of actual hits. In the interval that you've mentioned, Rodney hit at least 4 times, while KGV hit maybe once or twice.

c) If you were to consider straddles, you should remember that Bismarck straddled first his final battle. The reason for not hitting is that Rodney altered course and that later on the fw comand tower, main director and secondary command tower were taken out.

[Dave Saxton]

Well there's not a big disparity in depth below the waterline between the Bismarck class and the KGV after all. About 2 3/4 feet.

I would guesstimate that it was about 5ft at typical fighting displacements.

How you did calculate (or estimate) 5 ft? What do you think is a typical fighting displacement for both ships?

I can't speak for Duncan, but my measurement is with Bismarck at construction displacement.

[dunmunro]

During the period of 853 to 913, KGV scored 14 straddles to Rodney's 8 or 9, during a force 6 to 8 gale. KGV's shooting was better than Rodney's as she was a more stable gun platform, had better FC and radar. Bismarck's gunnery doctrine was to engage the ship with the biggest guns, so Hood would always be her target. KGV would have scored many more hits at DS than PoW did.

a) When saying "KGV's shooting was better than Rodney's", what source are you using? The historical performance against Bismarck is better for Rodney than for KGV. That you haven't accepted that yet, although you have been presented tons of evidence, is entirely your issue, and I won't be discussing it anymore.

b) The problem isn't of straddles, but of actual hits. In the interval that you've mentioned, Rodney hit at least 4 times, while KGV hit maybe once or twice.

c) If you were to consider straddles, you should remember that Bismarck straddled first his final battle. The reason for not hitting is that Rodney altered course and that later on the fw comand tower, main director and secondary command tower were taken out.

a) The Final Action by John Roberts from Warship 28. Rodney was closer to Bismarck, on average, than KGV but during the period when they were at roughly the same distance (before 0913), KGV's shooting was better. Rodney rapidly closed to point blank range, while KGV stood off at longer ranges (~12k yds). At several times during the action, KGV had to cease fire because the target was obscured, probably from Rodney's smoke. You can see the positions on these maps:
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/h ... attle.html
b) there is no way to say, definitively, who scored more hits in the opening 30min, but the evidence suggests that it was KGV.

c) Rodney is stated, based upon reports from the RN CAs to have hit Bismarck on her 2nd salvo (but there is no way to prove that it was Rodney and not KGV especially given the range and weather conditions) fired at about 08:48, and Bismarck's 3rd salvo was her only straddle and it landed at 8:53. Rodney may have scored on her next salvo as well (aided by radar ranges passed from KGV), but from then until salvo 18 (08:59)she lost the target. KGV scored a hit observed by her at 8:53 and continued to straddle, and most certainly hit until her type 284 broke down at 09:13. KGV's gunnery aspects report has been lost, unfortunately, and because of this Rodney is given more credit that is due her, and most of Rodney's hits were scored at very close ranges. KGV's FC systems were more modern than Rodney's, KGV was a more stable gun platform and KGV's gunnery was almost certainly more effective until 0913.

[dunmunro]

I can't speak for Duncan, but my measurement is with Bismarck at construction displacement.

I'll work it out, exactly, in due course.

[Karl Heidenreich]

dunmuro:

KGV maintained full output for the first 32min of the action, and by that time Bismarck was largely silenced. A similar performance at DS would probably also silenced Bismarck.

The correct assesment was that "by that time a 7 knot unmanouverable Bismarck that was facing two battleships plus several cruisers and destroyers was largely silenced". A similar performance was what actually happened at Denmarck Straits and forced Leach to broke up the engagement and run away in a cloud of smoke.

As always, in this particular matter, it is not mentioned that at Denmarck Straits while the Bismarck was firing on Hood it was when PoW was able to hit Bismarck, but when Hood was destroyed and Bismarck and PE concentrated fire on the British Battleship then it stop being the hunter to become the prey.

Now: I do believe that four twin mounts (even with 14") would have worked better. But we know that would have altered the design balance to be within the Treaty.