Germany captures all the French submarines

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Germany captures all the French submarines

Post by alecsandros »

Hello,

I've been thinking the last days about this: what if teh Vichy government would somehow manage to bring all the French subs on the east coast of France in the summer of 1940 (including the awesome Surcouf).

From what I've read, "La Redoutable" class (large oceanic submarines, somewhat similar in role to the U-Boat IX or the T-class/Balao) was comprised of some 29 subs!

So what do you think, could Doenitz have won the war late 1940-early 1941 by starving Britain?

My guess is that, if the Germans managed to train crews fast enough (and well enough), or if the French crews would have been willing to fight alongside the Kriegsmarine, in such a scenario, the war would have been very different.

All the best,
User avatar
José M. Rico
Administrator
Posts: 1008
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:23 am
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: Germany captures all the French submarines

Post by José M. Rico »

Well, the Italians sent 25 subs to Bordeaux in 1940, but they failed to adopt German wolf-pack tactics. Dönitz was so dissapointed co-operation with German u-boats was useless that finally had to allow the Italian subs to operate independently against single ships. "More eyes" at sea would be helpful but I don't think the French subs would change much.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Germany captures all the French submarines

Post by RF »

Who mans these French subs?

If it is the French, then Vichy is at war with Britain. This might at first sight be just a legal technicality, but it would have major implications for the French colonial empire, together with the remaining surface ships of the French Fleet under Vichy control. The British would have to take much stronger action against the French territories, in turn meaning much more conflict with French troops, including Foreign Legion. There may also be major implications for the Torch landings, if the French had prepared substantive defences beforehand.

If the Germans man the subs, how would the KM be able to familiarise themselves with how to operate them? And how long would it take? Would it take resources away from the German subs?

I think Jose is right, the French subs would have been of little use.

But there is one advantage the Germans could have had - the use of French colonial bases such as Dakar, for U-boats and surface warships plus also Luftwaffe air cover if their airfields could be used. That would affect the strategic balance.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Germany captures all the French submarines

Post by RF »

Jose, note that some Italian subs, such as Leonardo Da Vinci, had successful records of tonnage sinking. The Da Vinci for example sank more shipping than the great majority of individual German U-boats.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 4349
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Germany captures all the French submarines

Post by alecsandros »

RF wrote: If the Germans man the subs, how would the KM be able to familiarise themselves with how to operate them? And how long would it take? Would it take resources away from the German subs?
That's one of the questions that I also have. A best case scenario would be to fully equip the French subs with German personnel, and using "La Redoutable class" in direct connection with the German Atlantic submarine offensive. The training and some technical conversion of the ships might take a while (I don't know how much).

But if the Germans would manage to pull it of before January 1941, I think Britain is in deep trouble, because they had quite few escorts (they were still spread between the far east, the Med and Atlantic, and didn't use corvettes, while the Lend-Lease act wasn't in effect).

And another thing: the French subs had more weapons than the German/Italian counterparts, being more closer to the American T-class/Balao in that aspect. They carried 9-10 torpedo tubes. Another plus would be the Surcouf, a cruiser-submarine equiped with 10 torpedo tubes AND 2x203mm guns (with an effective range of about 11km).
Post Reply