Lutjens dies and Lindemann takes command

[lwd]

No it's not. The British ships were clearly a threat to Bismarck. While it's highly unlikly that they would have been able to sink her they could have damaged her enough that other British ships could have caught up with her and sunk her. The Germans can't afford to trade 2 for 1. They certainly can't afford to trade 1 for 1.

Agree that the Germans are not kind for any kind of trade. Still the cruisers are not a match for Bismarck as they were not a match for Graf Spee (being the Spee a much "lesser" unit). The simple notion, again, of trying to made a balance out of this is ludicrous. As soon as those cruisers are in Mullenheim Rechberg´s crosshairs they have met their fate.

Historically that is not the case. Bismarck has to worry about POW in this scenario and the cruisers can make smoke and maneuver to avoid fire as well.

[dunmunro]

And many other had demostrated that Bismarck was very capable of doing much better speeds than those that you support. As a matter of fact the only argument against Bismarck´s speed came from you, that I know of.

Bismarck has suffered UW damage and lost 2 knots of speed. Even if we grant Bismarck the ability to do 30 knots prior to the DS battle, she no longer had that ability due to battle damage.

[yellowtail3]

As soon as those cruisers are in Mullenheim Rechberg´s crosshairs they have met their fate.

...and the out-sized myth & legend of the Bismarck continues. Was Mr. Rechberg a supernatural deadeye gunnery officer, or what? Maybe Rechberg's director would have met its fate when in the crosshairs of RN cruisers.

This is a fun hypothetical thread, and it flows from the Bismarck Myth, that goes something like this: Bismarck was the greatest battleship of all time. Bismarck fought heroically, outnumbered, and it weren't for that aloof dummkopf Lutjens - blame on him!!! - Lindemann and his merry men would have sunk Prince of Wales and returned victorious, from whence to terrorize the Royal Navy and disrupt convoys, and... the Reich would have lasted, well, maybe a couple more years than it did.

That myth was the conventional wisdom for about five decades.

[Karl Heidenreich]

yellowtail:

This is a fun hypothetical thread, and it flows from the Bismarck Myth, that goes something like this: Bismarck was the greatest battleship of all time. Bismarck fought heroically, outnumbered, and it weren't for that aloof dummkopf Lutjens - blame on him!!! - Lindemann and his merry men would have sunk Prince of Wales and returned victorious, from whence to terrorize the Royal Navy and disrupt convoys, and... the Reich would have lasted, well, maybe a couple more years than it did.

As you may be aware by now I do not regard Bismarck as the most powerful battleship in History... Yamato was. I also COULD agree that she was not even the more powerful in the Atlantic (I´m not granting that for the time being anyway). But she was the greatest in the historical sense which is why, myth or not, there are more books, magazines, websites, model kits, movie and documentaries on her than on any other warship (I think that the only ship which such atention gathering is Titanic).
Now, if we grant that she wasn´t the myth that you mention (and that I recon it exists) she isn´t the Bayern Baden derivative and ill designed vessel that some common wisdom tries to convince people she was. Because, basically, she wans´t neither of those.

Now:

Bismarck fought heroically. She did. I think that the only USN BB that fought in such a way was USS Washington at Second Guadalcanal and she never was in such a critical situation.

Bismarck fought outnumbered: She did.

and it weren't for that aloof dummkopf Lutjens - blame on him!!!
He refused to fire upon it´s enemies and Lindeman took the initative did it himself. Then Lutjens refused to continue any fighting against PoW, he didn´t returned via DS ro Norway and at last he sent a message, so large, that compromised the ship´s security.

Lindemann and his merry men would have sunk Prince of Wales and returned victorious, from whence to terrorize the Royal Navy and disrupt convoys, and... the Reich would have lasted, well, maybe a couple more years than it did.
You are stating things that even the myth do not follow at all. Lindeman, maybe, would have tried to hunt and nail PoW. Would he have been succesfull? I don´t know, but he have his chances, at least more than those of Leach getting nail Bismarck his way around. I have never said, and you know it from this same thread, that Bismarck was capable of doing any more damage later after her return. What I think is that she would have returned, become a threat in being as Tirpitz was (a waste) and that maybe (just maybe) the Germans would have attempted something with those two BBs plus Schanhorst but that´s not certain. Which is certain is that Bismarck could very much have ended as Tirpitz blown at her harbor. The Reich would have never even feel an extra second because of Bismarck´s adventures, real or fancy.

I tried to give a "balanced" answer.

Best regards,

[lwd]

...But she was the greatest in the historical sense ...,

Was she? I think that's a matter of some considerable debate. Indeed I would propose that Warspite is a more apt candidate for that title if any ship is. Although a case could be made for one or more of the Iowa class BBs as well.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Although a case could be made for one or more of the Iowa class BBs as well.

I´m open: let´s review those many life or death battles in which the Iowa Class Battleships fought against several enemy battleships, cruisers, destroyers and aircraft carriers and other impossible odds and sustained great casualties to live in glory forever.

I can concurr that Warspite story is that of one of the most succesfull and glorious battleships (and warships) ever. A great British ship.

[Legend]

I believe if fate hadn't intervened and the Bismarck wouldn't have sailed out, HMS Hood would have been the most famous, for she held that title until the very day she was destroyed.

I do not know Lindeman as well as some of you may, so would he, after possibly catching up with PoW and turning her into a floating hulk, have returned to Germany?

[lwd]

Although a case could be made for one or more of the Iowa class BBs as well.

I´m open: let´s review those many life or death battles in which the Iowa Class Battleships fought against several enemy battleships, cruisers, destroyers and aircraft carriers and other impossible odds and sustained great casualties to live in glory forever.....

Historical importance is hardly best judged by battles and casualties. The Iowa's saw military service and combat over a period that covered almost 40 years and played important parts in several wars as well as diplomatic efforts. Indeed an argument can be made that Tirpitz had far more historical signifgance that Bismarck.

[Bgile]

I´m open: let´s review those many life or death battles in which the Iowa Class Battleships fought against several enemy battleships, cruisers, destroyers and aircraft carriers and other impossible odds and sustained great casualties to live in glory forever.

OK, I guess that makes Yamashiro more glorious than Bismarck, because it "took" more ships to sink her and she also sustained great casualties.

[yellowtail3]

I´m open: let´s review those many life or death battles in which the Iowa Class Battleships fought against several enemy battleships, cruisers, destroyers and aircraft carriers and other impossible odds and sustained great casualties to live in glory forever.

to put much credence in sustaining great casualties to live in glory forever - ??? - is an odd way to evaluate a warship.

[Karl Heidenreich]

lwd:

Historical importance is hardly best judged by battles and casualties. The Iowa's saw military service and combat over a period that covered almost 40 years and played important parts in several wars as well as diplomatic efforts. Indeed an argument can be made that Tirpitz had far more historical signifgance that Bismarck.

We are NOT talking Historical Importance because, you yourself, questioned my assesment of Bismarck as the most famous Battleship in order to put an Iowa as such. If we are talking Historical importance then the Liberty ships or light carriers or fleet subs or Fletcher destroyers are by far more important than 99% of the Battleships of WWII. I´m talking about legendary fame, which Bismarck has and USS New Jersey don´t (at least in the same dimensions and scope). Bismarck´s brief sortie was legendary. Which Iowa sortie was as legendary? That´s my point, besides to point out your semantic and rethorical tricks which are your resources to fill the inmense gap of your so called arguments.

Bgile:

OK, I guess that makes Yamashiro more glorious than Bismarck, because it "took" more ships to sink her and she also sustained great casualties.

Japanese ships (as most eastern things) are not regarded as important or as great as those of the westerners. Of course Yamashiro could be regarded as fighting in a way no USS BB ever did... only Washington by saving the day of poor USS South Dakota after her failure of hitting nothing with her radar fire direction and getting nailed by a bunch of destroyers and cruisers and aging Kirishima.

[lwd]

lwd:

Historical importance is hardly best judged by battles and casualties. The Iowa's saw military service and combat over a period that covered almost 40 years and played important parts in several wars as well as diplomatic efforts. Indeed an argument can be made that Tirpitz had far more historical signifgance that Bismarck.

We are NOT talking Historical Importance because, you yourself, questioned my assesment of Bismarck as the most famous Battleship in order to put an Iowa as such.

No. I specifically took issue with this quote:

...I also COULD agree that she was not even the more powerful in the Atlantic (I´m not granting that for the time being anyway). But she was the greatest in the historical sense which is why, ...,

[yellowtail3]

I also COULD agree that she was not even the more powerful in the Atlantic ...

I must give credit where credit is due; you'd be absolutely right to agree on that point!

[RF]

I believe if fate hadn't intervened and the Bismarck wouldn't have sailed out, HMS Hood would have been the most famous, for she held that title until the very day she was destroyed.

I do not know Lindeman as well as some of you may, so would he, after possibly catching up with PoW and turning her into a floating hulk, have returned to Germany?

Most likely make for a French port - the easiest solution and the one that Lutjens took. And in my view, the right decision.

[Djoser]

But once the battle was engaged, I find the lack of aggressiveness as a notable weakness, and not a singular one eiter (Barents Sea being another very good example).

I find your comparison with Napoleonic syndrome as out of place - there are oh-so-many naval battles during which the "napoleonic" underdog turned the tables in his favor by acting bold and decisive.

Well we know what Nelson would have done in Lindemann's shoes, don't we? I think Hipper might well have been in Lindemann's camp as well, and Scheer who basically turned back into the direction of a superior battle fleet for the hell of it. Though the latter commander got off easy in the latter case, I suspect. Not through lack of either fighting spirit or fighting ability.

Lindemann and Lutjens supposedly had heated words when Lindemann was inclined to finish off POW.

As far as whether BS could have done it, it would all depend on the highest sustainable speed of both ships. Certainly the POW had no means to defend herself from any pursuer directly astern whatever. Passing shells laboriously through a jammed ring doesn't do much good, though I have no doubt they would have tried! If the Bismarck was capable of even the slightest higher speed, odds don't look good for POW.