Lutjens dies and Lindemann takes command

[Bgile]

Lets say for argument sake that Lindemann's decisions are choosen and PoW is finished off , followed by a dash back to Bergen. This is going to have a huge morale boost for KM and Hitler would not turn against surface ships so badly, if he can boast that one German BB is better than two RN BB. I would think more such operations would occure but be planned to coinside with worsening weather situations of Winter, thus minimising the impact allied airpatrols can have.

I think the odds of Bismarck sinking PoW, which is retiring at high speed behind a smoke screen, are practically nil. The flooding forward will get progressively worse if she doesn't slow down, and that will ultimately effect her speed, permanently if there are progressive bulkhead failures.

[tommy303]

There is also the fact that, because of the mission type, Bismarck carried three types of ammunition for her main battery--APC, base fuzed HE (SAPC), and nose fuzed HE divided into about 40 rounds of each type per gun. During the course of the action she fired mostly APC, save for a salvo of base fuzed HE at the very start and expenditure totaled about 28% of her available AP shell. To have pursued PoW in an effort to sink her, she might well have used up all the rest of her APC ammo, or about 232 rounds. Even if we assume a hit percentage of 4%--a not unrealistic figure considering PoW is trying to escape and using smoke, that only works out to about another nine hits, and I don't think this would necessarily be sufficient against such a well armoured opponent, unless one got very lucky. In the actual battle the Germans had thought they had knocked the PoW out of the fight altogether and that she was more heavily damaged than she really was. The need to conserve AP ammo should other heavy units appear, or to attack a convoy heavy escort while Prinz Eugen went after the merchant ships (remember it was another half hour or hour before a damage control assessment led to the conclusion that Bismarck's part of the mission was over due to damage), was at the moment considered more important than trying to finish off what was thought to be a decisively defeated battleship.

[Paul L]

Or maybe Hitler will try not to risk them and lost that boost? Kayser-like...

Well Hitler avoided navy issues until he was forced to intervene. He put increasing restrictions as operations failed. After the Bismarck loss, he forbade any surface raider sortie into the Atlantic. So I doubt a wild success would have halted these raiding missions. I do agree that they might have been scaled back in time as the inevitable losses would occured later.

[lwd]

Lets say for argument sake that Lindemann's decisions are choosen and PoW is finished off , followed by a dash back to Bergen. This is going to have a huge morale boost for KM and Hitler would not turn against surface ships so badly, if he can boast that one German BB is better than two RN BB. I would think more such operations would occure but be planned to coinside with worsening weather situations of Winter, thus minimising the impact allied airpatrols can have.

I think the odds of Bismarck sinking PoW, which is retiring at high speed behind a smoke screen, are practically nil. The flooding forward will get progressively worse if she doesn't slow down, and that will ultimately effect her speed, permanently if there are progressive bulkhead failures.

I almost wrote the same but whether POW is sunk or not if Bismarck makes it home his conclusions are probably equally valid.

[RF]

Question - if Lutjens dies, who succeeds as acting Fleet Commander? Would it automatically be Lindemann, or would it be the senior member of the Admiral's staff, who I believe had at least the rank of Lindemann? And what about Brinckmann in Prinz Eugen - was he junior to Lindemann?

As for Lindemann himself, I believe he would have gone for POW, and then head into the far North prior to a return to Germany, or failing that, Norway.

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF´s question about the chain of command is very valid. Logic dictates that Lutjen´s chief of staff might be the one called to assume "squadron leadership". But the main issue here, as happens in reality everywhere, is that the strongest character and that with the operational handling of the situation becomes, de facto, the leader. Lindemann would have been that character.

And Lindemann would have gone for PoW, I agree. The wounded British BB would have been destroyed and Bismarck, perhaps more heavily damaged that it was, would have returned to Norway in victory.

The interesting thing is that even Lutjens could have returned in victory to Norway after "just" sinking Hood. Don´t think Raeder would be upset with him by blowing Hood and bringing back Bismarck in one piece.

[paulcadogan]

Hold on a minute...

A return to Norway may not have been a piece of cake either. I don't think the British would have thrown their hands up and said, "Oh look! She's going back to Norway! Jolly good show! Let's go home!"

If Lindemann left PoW alone and turned back he would have been shadowed in the same way as in reality - Suffolk, Norfolk & Prince of Wales plus Holland's destroyers - with Manchester, Birmingham & Arethusa sweeping north from the Iceland-Faeroes passage to try to make contact at the northern end of the DS - with Tovey coming up behind with KGV, Repulse, Victorious, Galatea, Hermione, Aurora, Kenya plus destroyers .

If he had pursued PoW, I think Tommy makes a very valid point in that it would have used up Bismarck's AP without doing enough to destroy the British BB - plus causing delay - and maybe putting PE at risk of serious damage from Suffolk & Norfolk - then to run the gauntlet of a return to Norway with damaged ships with Tovey steering to intercept.

Unless the weather closed in and allowed the German ships to evade the shadowers, there might very well have been another battle to fight.

Paul

[José M. Rico]

You are correct Paul.
If Bismarck turns back via the Denmark Strait and Tovey goes for the Iceland-Faeroes passage he has a good chance of intercepting Bismarck somewhere south of Jan Mayen Island.

[lwd]

I think I read that the British had subs out there as well and there is a chance that the old BBs from Home fleet can even intercept if the British want to try. Risky though.

[Paul L]

The british northern battle fleet was low on fuel and had to return to port within days. Likewize the same evasive maneuver that got the Bismarck away from the cruisers could very well have been used to slip detection and double back to DS and back to Norway. All it would take would be a deception maneuver like radio message saying they are heading for Brest to complete the escape.

The weather at that time was not great with low pressure front between iceland and the UK. Also there would be more likely to be German Uboats in these waters than British Uboats infact as I recall this was one of the main reasons the German group moved much faster than the RN groups.... The RN groups had to zigzag due to the threat of Uboats.

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/topkarten/fsslpeur.html

[Karl Heidenreich]

One thing is that Tovey COULD do something, like intercept Bismarck. Another is: will he attempt to do it? Everybody is forgetting Hood´s horrible destruction and the orders that RN send to their own ships: not a single capital ship must engage Bismarck unless is in numerical superiority. Do the British could achieve? Maybe. But, still, is a path much safer than the Atlantic and France. Specially if PoW is left a wreck or destroyed.

[paulcadogan]

The british northern battle fleet was low on fuel and had to return to port within days. Likewize the same evasive maneuver that got the Bismarck away from the cruisers could very well have been used to slip detection and double back to DS and back to Norway. All it would take would be a deception maneuver like radio message saying they are heading for Brest to complete the escape.

At that time, fuel was not an issue for the Home Fleet. Fuel became an issue for Repulse as she pushed deeper into the Atlantic on the 25th. She would have not had problems heading through the Faeroes gap to the north of Iceland, fighting an action and (providing lightning didn't strike twice) going to Hvalfiord to refuel afterwards. The same option would have been open to other British ships in that area. Submarines were always a concern but that would not have stopped Tovey - didn't stop him on May 27th - what were his destroyers there for?

If Bismarck turns back through the strait there would be no room to maneuver to escape the shadowers or she would have done it on the night of the 23-24th. (Although she did escape them temporarily in the snow storm and failed to take advantage - though if she had turned to the south she might have run smack into Hood & PoW anyway!)

The radio message would have been triangulated, as Lutjens long signal was, to show the ships' general location.

I believe a retreat through the DS could very well have been the more dangerous option for the two German ships - sending them into a pincered trap of two battleships (if PoW left alone) a battlecruiser, an aircraft carrier, two heavy and seven light cruisers and a slew of destroyers. May 1941 was not November 1939 when the Twins were luckily (and skillfully) navigated in foul weather through a similar hornet's nest of British ships that were without radar.

The Atlantic provided a wide area to maneuver and Lutjens almost succeeded in escaping. To me, the main negative for the Atlantic was St. Nazaire itself. As the Twins had learned, the RAF was not going to sit idly by...

Paul

[RF]

Turning back north does indeed have its dangers - if the RN forces could be concemtrated. But even here the available firepower was hardly greater than what Holland had had. And no Rodney with its 16 inch guns.

[paulcadogan]

Because of the specific area involved, i.e. the northern end of the DS, there would be a fair chance of concentration in a pincer movement.

And as far as firepower goes - Holland's firepower was capable of seriously hurting Bismarck, Tovey's was as well. And don't forget Prinz Eugen - having to contend with a potential nine British cruisers in various combinations.

Paul

[Nellie]

And Lindemann would have gone for PoW, I agree. The wounded British BB would have been destroyed and Bismarck, perhaps more heavily damaged that it was, would have returned to Norway in victory.

.

In your wet dreams Karl, every one who use common sense realize that Bismarck couldn't even go for the same speed as POW at that time, nor even sink her.
POW was able to do 29 knots that day, what do you think a flooding Bismarck could do?
When it comes to Bismarck you never think logical, your feelings about that ship is taking over, and that is very pervert.