Scharnhorst and Gneisenau vs Renown and repulse

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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Nellie
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Scharnhorst and Gneisenau vs Renown and repulse

Post by Nellie »

That would be an interesting battle, i am not sure if the Renown class with their thin armour could resist an 11 inch shell in all situations and the scharnhorst class should have the same problem with the 15 inch shells, i suppose the scharnhorst class where a little bit better armoured and had an advantage in speed of 1-2 knots but in the end i think it´s a matter of luck and circumstances who´s gonna win!
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Post by turlock »

These scenarios mostly assume a straight up technical matchup, but many factors would influence the outcome. Weather, sea state, visibility and the determination of the commanders would all play vital roles.
The German war logs for their action with Renown off Norway show that they were very impressed with her performance. Both S and G were cursed with low freeboard, exacerbated by wartime loadings. Both suffered severe flooding problems with their main armament and the breakdowns were duly noted in the log. Both thus were fighting at greatly reduced efficiency and were in no condition to take on a crack ship like Renown in those seas.
In the action off Norway the ranges were close, but given a clear day with excellant visibility the advantage would pass to S and G, which far outrange R and R. There is no armor on R and R that is really safe from the SKC34 28cm. A nine inch belt will not keep it out, on paper below 25,000 yards. Conversely, for R and R to penetrate the twins belt, the range theoretically would have to be under 15,000 yards. Both could penetrate the others main armament at average battle ranges. The deck armor of R and R should hold out beyond 30,000 as the German gun fired at magnum type velocity and was very flat shooting until the range got extreme. Beyond 26,000 yards the British ships would be merely target practice due to the limited range of the fifteen. Strangely, throughout WW2 German commanders seem to have made no seagoing tactical use of their range advantage over the fifteen. Back then however, gunnery capabilities were closely guarded secrets so the Germans may well have assumed that the fifteen could easily reach over 30,000 yards.
At night by radar, well, you know the story in stormy weather. Under clear skies the Germans could have a chance, as their night fighting skills were better. Of course this would assume the British had no 284 radar.
In clear daylight with relatively calm seas, I'd say the Germans could win. In bad weather the British, due to radar. With all forces on optics and moderate to long range, I'd take Carl Zeiss anytime over Barr and Stroud. In the end, luck and crew skill would decide.
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Post by turlock »

My apologies and I wish to make a correction to the above post. The British fifteen could reach to 32,000 yards at 30 degrees elevation. Renown would have had her mounts modified but I don't recall if Repulse was. 26,000 would be the correct range at 20 degrees.
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Nellie
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Post by Nellie »

Interesting, that was more than i knew, that means that the main guns on renown in the end had the same maximum elevation as hood but what i know the hood could only reach 30 000 yards at 30 degrees elevation.
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Post by Tiornu »

Renown had the new "6crh" shells, which were more aerodynamic. Her 30deg mounts could shoot to 33,550 yards when new. Hood, with the old "4crh" shells, had a maximum range of 30,180 yards. For guns with 20deg mounts, the old shells could reach 24,350 yards, and the new shells could reach 26,650 yards. Many ships with 20deg mounts were assigned an allowance of super-charge propellants, which could add a few thousand yards of range.
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RF
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Post by RF »

It would be interesting to rerun this with S and G armed with 15 inch guns.

Any comments anybody?
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

The R sisters would beat the German Twins. 11" are not match for 15". The only thing is how much punishment the Germans would endure before sinking because of the Twins armour.

If the Twins were armed with 15". Well, we have now a different scenario: big battle. The R sisters, I believe, doesn´t had the armour to withstand the German 15". It´s likely a German victory.
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marcelo_malara
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Post by marcelo_malara »

Remember Repulse and Renown were thin-skinned.
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Gary
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Post by Gary »

If the range decreases then S & G's higher rate of fire will be a factor.
God created the world in 6 days.........and on the 7th day he built the Scharnhorst
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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

hey...
the fact that the twins had so much trouble hitting the Renown alone...shows that against Renown and Repulse, the chances would have even be less likely for a German victory...

although if the twins would have 15in guns...the situation would be totally different...

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RF
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Post by RF »

miro777 wrote:hey...
the fact that the twins had so much trouble hitting the Renown alone...shows that against Renown and Repulse, the chances would have even be less likely for a German victory...

although if the twins would have 15in guns...the situation would be totally different...

adios
miro
OK, so how would it go with say Scharnhorst with nine 11 inch, Gneisenau with six 15 inch?
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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

Hey...

actually this battle could go either way...

the forces are pretty much equal.

Scharnhorst:
better protection

Renown:
better speed

the guns, depending on how we arm the twins...is similiar as well...


how about the twins against renown in clear conditions?
would they then win?

adios
miro
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RF
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Post by RF »

miro777 wrote:Hey...

actually this battle could go either way...

the forces are pretty much equal.

Scharnhorst:
better protection

Renown:
better speed

the guns, depending on how we arm the twins...is similiar as well...


how about the twins against renown in clear conditions?
would they then win?

adios
miro
In clear conditions, flat sea, and the twins on either flank of Renown, the germans have the advantage if their shooting is good - not like Scharnhorst at Spitzbergen....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

hey....
yes but wat if there are renown AND repulse....
then the British would have an advantage....



adios
miro
Die See ruft....
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RF
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Post by RF »

miro777 wrote:hey....
yes but wat if there are renown AND repulse....
then the British would have an advantage....



adios
miro
Yes, unless the German pair both had 15 inch guns.....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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