US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

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jazsa80
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US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by jazsa80 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:09 pm

Bit far fetched but oh well.

Jan 1945 see the US intelligence gain the exact locations of the mines and bay defences in Tokyo bay. They send every available BB into the bay to bombard the brains out everything in range. With hindsight how well do you think a mission like this could go? How many US BBs would make it through? It would not just be BBs but also there screening vessels, heavy cruisers etc.

Knowing what state Japan was in I would think that a few ships could be sunk but all Japanese marine craft in the bay would have to destroyed and more damage still to Port defences etc. I would say that once they were through the bay entrance they would just do a loop through the bay firing at everything and return out to sea.

But then again im a dreamer...

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by lwd » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:17 pm

I've seen a link to Japanese naval defences on the home Islands but can't seem to find it. Here's a link to Tokyo's AA defences: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/onl ... o_flak.htm
Here's a report on the defences of Tushima. Some data about equivalant weapons around Tokyo may be useful: http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_ ... 55%20N.pdf
This thread may give you an idea about some of the other troops in the area: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5&t=118165
Here's some info on Japanese army aviation: http://sv06.wadax.ne.jp/~gunsight-jp/b/ ... aiti-e.htm

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by JtD » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:17 am

What would be the military benefit from such a thing?

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by RF » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:54 pm

Such an operation in fact (and I am saying this with the benefit of hindsight) would have been a sensible idea, given proper air cover from US carriers, and powerful escort forces.
The Japanese had little that could effectively oppose them. The military value to the Allies would be to demonstrate that they had total superiority and the Japanese would have to regard as it as precursor to possible immediate invasion of their homeland - even if the Americans couldn't have done that.
End result - I think that coming immediately after the Tokyo fire blitz of early 1945 the Japanese could have been induced to surrender before the Germans did.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by Bgile » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:38 pm

I think the likely hood of knowing where the mines are is very low and is a show stopper.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by JtD » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:26 pm

A battleship parade through Tokio bay would provide the Japanese with the great opportunity to make perfect use of their naval coastal defense forces - some submarines, torpedo boats and other small craft and of course it would have been a great opportunity for Kamikazes.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:13 pm

Remember the Blucher.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by David89 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:27 pm

A couple of cheap torpedoes or mines can do a lot of damage in confined waters to some very expensive ships. At this point in the war, this would probably be the chance that the IJN would have been hoping and praying for.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by RF » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:27 am

JtD wrote:A battleship parade through Tokio bay would provide the Japanese with the great opportunity to make perfect use of their naval coastal defense forces - some submarines, torpedo boats and other small craft and of course it would have been a great opportunity for Kamikazes.
And demonstrate just how impotent they could be in the face of real concentrated firepower. Yes, the kamikaze would pose a real threat - particulary to carriers. But a phalanx of battleships could expose the contradiction of the kamikaze - once the pilots are all used up, what is there left?
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by RF » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:27 am

Comparing the US Navy to the Blucher Karl is rather facsile. You may as well say rember Pearl Harbor....

Blucher was a cruiser whose engine room crew had been given no training in fire fighting proceedures, had no experience of combat situations. The ship was lost because a small fire was left uncontained and blew into a major conflagration. The US Navy by 1945 had plenty of combat experience and in fire fighting.....
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by RF » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:36 am

David89 wrote:A couple of cheap torpedoes or mines can do a lot of damage in confined waters to some very expensive ships. At this point in the war, this would probably be the chance that the IJN would have been hoping and praying for.
The application of overwhelming force would overcome this. And it would take more than the odd mine or torpedo to sink a US battleship that is fully alert and battle hardened. This would not be Gallipoli in 1915, where one German U-boat was presented with a shooting gallery of battleship targets.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by lwd » Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:00 pm

The synergy of the Japanese defences could be a real problem. Consider the situation where the battle force is navigating through a mine field. The Japanese know where the mines are and what the safe route is so if they fire torpedeos in anticipation of the battle force moving through the clear lane the BBs can either try and avoid the torpedeos or the mines. While one is unlikely to sink a US BB it's going to send it back to port for repairs and multiple hits are more likely to. Especialy if they are from 24" torpedoes. Also the various suicide attacks could be a real problem if the Japanese decide to use them rather than hold them back for the invasion force. The lack of warning and again the need to respond to air, surface and subsurface attacks could greatly increase the effectiveness of all of them.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by RF » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:33 pm

lwd,

Your analysis is entirely correct except for the preconsideration that the firer of the torpedoes has to get into position to fire before being located and destroyed.
On paper Warspite should have been sunk at the second Battle of Narvik. The fact is that all the torpedo carrying vessels here were sunk before they could even reach a firing position, bar one destroyer which did manage to train its torpedo tubes before being instantly overwhelmed by gunfire. And this was done without overwhelming airpower being deployed. Apply this lesson to January 1945 where overwhelming firepower could be deployed - what means would the Japanese have to pose a substantial torpedo threat without facing immediate destruction?

Also bear in mind that during 1945 a whole host of Allied warships shelled the coastline of Japan, with virtual impunity let alone any substantial loss.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by Bgile » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:02 pm

RF wrote: Also bear in mind that during 1945 a whole host of Allied warships shelled the coastline of Japan, with virtual impunity let alone any substantial loss.
They didn't do it from Tokyo Bay. And Karl is right on about Blucher. You don't have to fire torpedoes from ships, Japanese torpedoes were wakeless, and very long ranged. I'd be surprised if they didn't have torpedo installations ashore. I can imagine a battleship getting hit by several torpedoes, losing power, and drifting into a minefield and setting off several mines. It begins to sink and other ships come to it's aid and hit mines. A very messy situation. You don't want to go into closed waters where the defenders have had a long time to prepare unless you absolutely have to.

If Tokyo was anything like major US cities there were battleship caliber guns there as well, in well sited hidden positions very hard to put out of action.

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Re: US BBs into Tokyo Bay Jan 1945

Post by Kyler » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:09 am

The Dardanelles during World War 1, forced Fisher to resigned in protest, and ended Churchill stint as Lord of the Admiralty.

So a similar action in Tokyo would be just as foolish tactically and politically.
"It was a perfect attack, Right Height, Right Range, Right cloud cover, Right speed,
Wrong f@%king ship!" Commander Stewart-Moore (HMS Ark Royal)

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