Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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Pr_Eugen
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by Pr_Eugen »

lwd wrote:I'm pretty sure I read that the Soviets were trying to buy the guns from another power indicating that they may not have had the capability of creating her main guns.
You are mistaken.
The USSR bought projects, instead of ready samples.
Projects modified to necessary characteristics and began a batch production.

But artillery in the USSR always developed independently
...to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
als_pug
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by als_pug »

the russians actually had the guns ready for at least one of their battleships . also their is a 16 inch gun still in existance somewhere near the finnish border i will try and find a link to it . apparently it is still operational. ok i found the link to a very unique site . i hope you like the photos as much as i did .


http://www.nortfort.ru/coastal/foto_4061_e.html
Bgile
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by Bgile »

Amazing! The links seem to go on and on. I bookmarked the first one so I can spend more time with it later.

Thanks very much for this!
als_pug
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by als_pug »

yes i stumbled across the site months ago and remembered it when the sovietsky soyuz was mentioned. the weapon looks to be in very good condition from the photos . i hope it has not been scrapped .
Tiornu
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by Tiornu »

The Soviets tried to get large guns from America and possibly from the French. Some folks think the entire fiasco with Gibbs & Cox was a cover for buying 16in guns.
As that web site indicates the mounted 16in gun was the trial gun for SoSo class 16in production. It fired on German troops during the war. I don't know off the top of my head how many 16in guns were actually completed, but I'm fairly certain that completion of the ships would have been slowed by the gun bottleneck. This was true even for much smaller ships.
Serg
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by Serg »

Seems you more advanced researcher than the Mr MacLaughlin and russian authors :-) Of course Soviets had interest in german 15" for heavy cruisers but it is not the case for SS battleships. The mention was made that on different stage of readiness were 11 16" barrels when the war broke out. It is not including gun mentioned above because it was without removable liner. Also a certain number of 16" projectiles was in stock (IIRC, 600+). And as bottleneck our authorities mentioned the production of steel (and especially heavy armour - it came to using non-cemented vertical armor instead FH). However the truth of the matter is by no means clear.
Actually, what reason to pay for whole Gibbs's hybrid if only guns really needed?
Tiornu
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by Tiornu »

Yes, I do a lot of work with Mr McLaughlin. It's not clear what was going on with the G&C connection. Poor Mr Carp had his own motivations and a fresh memory of the great purge. There is no guarantee that the Soviets would have paid for the hybrid, though they may have wanted the plans. They were eager to buy a variety of plans, ranging from old battleships to modern destroyers. When we look for coherent plans from the Soviets, we will sometimes be disappointed. You do make a good point that gun production was only one hurdle and perhaps not the highest. Even the production of rivets was suffering problems, perhaps causing one unit to be canceled entirely.
Serg
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by Serg »

I see :-) I familiar with hybrid warships and russian battleships. There is no mention that the Mr Carp or someone else try to purchase heavy guns from US or France. So I was under impression that you find new information on this thread.
As to rivets on Sovetskaia Bellorussiia, according to Vasil'ev " lineinye korabli tipa Sovetskii Soiuz " 2006 (although it is new book it only summarise old articles), p115: "...due to low workers qualification "a flaw on riveting" take place: up to 70000 rivets were made from the "not specified" steel (low quality steel). All works on formation of the hull of this ship should be suspended". However unclear is it wrong steel or bad work or the one and the other.
Interesting that after trials with experimental midship section some soviet experts come to conclusion to use FH armor for main armor deck. It will be first battleship with very effective protection against AP bombs. Unfortunately FH was very costly (in 2-3 times for comparison with a homogeneous armor) and idea was rejected.
Tiornu
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by Tiornu »

No, I'm not claiming anything new. It's the same material that's been in published sources for almost thirty years.
The French also wanted to try face-hardened deck armor. This would be extremely difficult to connect with any structures over the deck and would cause a reduction in protection versus shells. I believe the only battleship with face-hardened deck armor was the Soviet ParKom.
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by Bgile »

IIRC the French didn't do very well with face hardened turret roofs.
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Re: Sovietsky Soyuz class battleships

Post by Tiornu »

The Japanese were the only others to try it. It doesn't appear to have been a good idea.
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