The Decisive Battle.

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jazsa80
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The Decisive Battle.

Post by jazsa80 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:53 pm

The BIG one. The USN and IJN close for the battle royal. Clash of the titans. Battle of the Brutes.

In the left corner stand the United States Navy:

USS Pennsylvania
USS Arizona
USS Nevada
USS Oaklahoma
USS Wyoming (No Utah)
USS New York
USS Texas
USS New Mexico
USS Mississipi
USS Idaho
USS Tennessee
USS California
USS Colarado
USS Maryland
USS West Virginia
USS North Carolina
USS Washington
USS South Dakota
USS Massachusetts
USS Alabama
USS Iowa
USS New Jersey

And in the right corner the Imperial Japanese Navy:
IJN Fuso
IJN Yamashiro
IJN Hyugo
IJN Ise
IJN Mutsu
IJN Nagato
IJN Kongo
IJN Haruna
IJN Kirishima
IJN Hiei
IJN Yamato
IJN Musashi

The US has the edge in numbers. This is all Ships commissioned as of Jan 1943. Consider all ships worked up and crews with no World War 2 combat experience.

Its a great day for a duel. Clear skys, great visibility and calm seas. Both Doctrines call for range to be closed to 22-24000 yards.

I think the USN has it, but if those !8.1 shells find their mark on some of the older US battlewagons they are going to do some damage.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by Bgile » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:01 pm

"Both Doctrines call for range to be closed to 22-24000 yards."

Is this just your idea for the scenario, or are you under the impression this was the case in reality?

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by lwd » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:15 pm

I'm pretty sure that pre-radar US doctrine was to close to about 25,000 yards then open the range a bit to around 27,000 yards. With radar the US would probably want to open fire sooner and maintain range. The Japanese doctrine was similar to the US I believe. Both countries counted on aerial spotting pre-war which didn't seam to live up to its promise and this would be a very challenging one in that regards.

I count 7 US BBs capable of fireing the 2700 lb AP shell. That leaves 15 other US BBs. The Japanese only have 12 total and only 4 of those equipped with 16" guns or better. The US is likely to take some damage but this is a walkaway. Any US ship that takes heavy damage can turn out of line. The Japanese can't afford to even try and finish off a cripple. On the other hand 10 of the Japaneses BB will have 2 other BBs firing at her. All but the Yamato's aren't going to hold up long to this.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by Tiornu » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:05 pm

Nobody, including the Japanese, had any doubt about the outcome of such an engagement.
Wyoming was a training ship, not a battleship.
Texas, New York, and Arkansas would not be involved.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by Dave Saxton » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:47 pm

The IJN expected, in theory, to be able to first reduce the American numerical advantage with submarine and aircraft torpedoes as the American fleet moved across the Pacific to the battle zone.

One of the prime rationals behind the Yamato class was the doctrine of out-ranging and out -gunning. This doctrine was to effectively fire at a greater range than the probable effective range of the enemy gunfire. They had extended the range to greater than 30k of their existing BB guns during the 30's.

The gunnery manual still on BB59 states that extreme range was considered to be 28,000 yards. This tells us much about US doctrine in 42 and 43. Moreover, radar did not yet change this during this time frame, because the gunlaying radars of the USN had a maximum range of 25,000-27,000 yards (BB to BB) in early 43.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by lwd » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:52 pm

Dave Saxton wrote:...
The gunnery manual still on BB59 states that extreme range was considered to be 28,000 yards. This tells us much about US doctrine in 42 and 43.
Does it? What was the date on the manual?
Moreover, radar did not yet change this during this time frame, because the gunlaying radars of the USN had a maximum range of 25,000-27,000 yards (BB to BB) in early 43.
That's not what it says about the Mk 3 at:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_Radar_WWII.htm
now at beyond that range it may be difficult to range on splashes but you still get a good range estimate.
and the Mk 8 also dates to this time period.
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-2.htm
seems to give a similar picture.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by tommy303 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:22 pm

The second link gives the Mk3 a range of
Reliable maximum range is 16,000 yds. for destroyer targets, 28,000 for battleships;

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by jazsa80 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:14 pm

USS Wyoming, USS Texas, USS Mexico and USS Arkansas couldnt make the battle (thanks Tiornu) due to prior engagments. Just to even the numbers.

In regards to the range doctrine, it was just something to ensure that we didnt end up debating whether or not the two lines even closed. If this was the first real naval clash for the War set in Jan 43, I could not see the USN sitting back and trying to use radar at extreme range to win.

Id say the real wild card here would be the speed differences. For the US we have ship top speeds ranging from 21 to 33Knots and for the for the IJN 25-31knots. Plus ther USN had 12 very old and not well armoured ships that the 16" and 18.1" shells are going to smash.

The IJN also has 2 Ships which theoretically can take whatever the others give. Its going to be a mess.

I also thought that the Japanese intended to be outnumbered in this battle? Hence the 'super battleships'.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by lwd » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:32 am

The US has a lot more 16" guns than the Japanese. There's the 4 ships in the Colorado class which will probably hold up about as well as the Nagatos. Then there are the other 7 that use the 2700lb AP round. Only the Yamato's are likely to hold up at all to that. So you have the Japanese outnumbered by over 1.5 to one and outgunned by even more. I suspect the broadside weight of the 16"gunned ships in the US battle line is greater than the Japanese battle line by itself. Then remember that one of the Japanese ships was seriously damaged by 8"gun fire (admittedly at short range).

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by Legend » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:59 am

I believe Oklahoma wouldn't be either. From data I have aquired over the last few weeks I see this happeneing:

Iowa, Jew Jersey, Missouri, Wisconsin, South Dakota, Indiana, Massachussetts, Alabama, North Carolina, Washington, Nevada, New York, Tenessee, California, Mississippi, Idaho, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Maryland, West Virginia (Subtract the ones stationed in the Atlantic, I don't have that data. These are the ones I show to have in service in late WWII.)

Yamato, Musashi, Nagato, Mutsu, Ise, Hyuga, Fuso, Yamashiro, Kongo, Hiei, Kirishima, and Haruna.


The Japanese have more battlewagons from the post-WWI era, but the "Standards" still have greater firepower. Here is a small table of the US BB Fleet verses the Japanese warships in firepower (lbs per minute):

Iowa, New Jersey, Missouri, Wisconsin, South Dakota, Indiana, Massachussetts, Alabama, North Carolina, Washington- 48,600
New York- 45,000
Yamato, Musashi- 43,456
Tenessee, California, Mississippi, Idaho, Pennsylvania- 36,000
Nagato, Mutsu- 35,984
Colorado, Maryland, West Virginia- 35,840
Ise, Hyuga, Fuso, Yamashiro- 35,640
Kongo, Hiei, Kirishima, Haruna- 23,760


This shows despite the slower speed and slightly inferior armor, the US WWI BB's still have more firepower than the Ise and Kongo class. I see two seperate battles coming to here. The nine slower "Standard Type Battleships" would seperate and lure the ten older Japanese ships to a wattery grave while the ten or so 30 knot US Leviathans slug it out with Yamato and Musashi, only after that going to help the "Standard Types" with the rest of the fleet. Though I can see the opposite happening, Yamato and Musashi go and have a frenzy in the midst of the 21 knot WWI battleships while the Kongo and Ise class ships occupy the "Modern BB's". After Yamato and Musashi have their fun, they change course and slug it out with the Modern US BB's. This scenario would leave the older and weaker Ise class and Kongo class limping around or sunk, and the WWI Battlewagons out of comission. That would be more ideal for the Japanese, making the final stage of the battle more fair, though the Yamato's and Musashi's crews would be exausted by that point.

Due to the chart above and the proven fact that speed (Proven at Jutland with the battlecruisers) is not a major factor, I see the US Navy coming out with the most ships in comission. The "Standard Type" were slower, but still packed more of a punch than most of the Japanese ships.
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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by Dave Saxton » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:31 am

tommy303 wrote:The second link gives the Mk3 a range of
Reliable maximum range is 16,000 yds. for destroyer targets, 28,000 for battleships;
Thanks Tom,

And the official USN radar manuals from these periods list it at 18K for DD's and 27k for BB's. At any rate 40k is way off the mark. It wasn't really until mid 43 before Mk8's obtained operational status on a handful of new construction and for the most part the MK3 remained the standard surface gunlaying set through 43. The early model Mk8 performance wasn't on par with that of late model versions of course.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by als_pug » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:06 am

ok as far as a pure battleship battle occuring . you forget the japanese prefered night combat . also their is always going to be destroyer escorts for a battleship . so another aspect is going to be the clash of the minows. the winner ofthe clash of the minnows is likely to also control the sway of the battle .

in the american position i would leave all my destroyers with the older ships while i tried to gain a better position with my faster ships . crosing the t is the ideal but in the case of this battle i feel neither side would slug it out like that . their would be an attempt to split formationsand draw off vulnerable forces.

in the japanese position i would be interested to see what my mong lances would do . also the yamato could kill most older battleships fairly easily. unless their gunnery was deficent i give this one to the historians. it would turn out like jutland . so long as their was damage done equally to both sides the strategic victor is going to be the usa.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by jazsa80 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:10 am

I wonder what it would do if we added Shinano and no.44 completed as Battleships?

On a different note if the lines were to slog it out running same course side by side at around 25000yards - how long will the ammunition last? In relation to the main artillery of all the ships. Would it last an hour? half an hour? And who would run out first and who would last the longest? Assuming Vessels are firing as fast as there shot fall spotting allows at that range.

If this battle was to have occured it would easily result in the biggest exhange of explosives the world had ever seen (bar the nukes). The sheer weight of ordance that would be flying through the air would be mind boggleing.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by lwd » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:30 am

als_pug wrote:... you forget the japanese prefered night combat . also their is always going to be destroyer escorts for a battleship . so another aspect is going to be the clash of the minows. the winner ofthe clash of the minnows is likely to also control the sway of the battle .....
The Japanese did plan to attack the US BBs with cruisers and DDs at night to attrit some of them. However that isn't the scenario posted. Here's an analysis of their plans for the torpedo attack.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-067.htm
One thing not mentioned in the above is that the US night time tactical formations were designed to prevent just what the Japanese were trying to do.

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Re: The Decisive Battle.

Post by Dave Saxton » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:31 pm

als_pug wrote:ok as far as a pure battleship battle occuring . you forget the japanese prefered night combat . also their is always going to be destroyer escorts for a battleship . so another aspect is going to be the clash of the minows. the winner ofthe clash of the minnows is likely to also control the sway of the battle .

in the american position i would leave all my destroyers with the older ships while i tried to gain a better position with my faster ships . crosing the t is the ideal but in the case of this battle i feel neither side would slug it out like that . their would be an attempt to split formationsand draw off vulnerable forces.
.........


There's the possibility of large scale Tassafaronga here.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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