Hipper vs. Graf Spee

[tommy303]

You're right! Don't know what I was thinking.

[Bgile]

You're right! Don't know what I was thinking.

Yes, but your general premise was correct.

[Gary]

Tommy raised a valid point.
Langsdorff believed he was up against Exeter and a pair of Destroyers.

I'm certain he would have been less than enthusiastic about engaging a County and 2 Towns.
AGS was a powerful ship for her size, but not that powerful

[lwd]

They were id'd correctly pretty quickly and in any case what options does he have? He can't outrun the British cruisers.

[tommy303]

Indications are that Graf Spee spotted Harwood some time before the British spotted the smoke from AGS as she ran her diesels up to full speed to close the range. For a barest amount of time, Graf Spee held the initiative and could have turned away and slipped off unnoticed. Later in the morning, an air search by Harwoods spotting planes may have found her, but that is another scenario.

[RF]

Tommy raised a valid point.
Langsdorff believed he was up against Exeter and a pair of Destroyers.

I'm certain he would have been less than enthusiastic about engaging a County and 2 Towns.
AGS was a powerful ship for her size, but not that powerful

According to Rasenack, Langsdorf initially identified a light cruiser and two destroyers - namely nothing above 6 inch gun calibre. If he had identified Exeter right away, namely a ship sporting 8 inch calibre, I suspect he may not have rushed in to engage. Rasenack specifically records that the second in command, Kapitan Kay, reminded Langsdorf of their orders with regard to engaging enemy warships in distant waters, at the point the decision to engage the ''light cruiser and two destroyers'' was made by Langsdorf..

[RF]

tommy303,

If its Cumberland, Belfast and Sheffield then I think we ought to upgrade AGS to Scharnhorst.....

[Bgile]

tommy303,

If its Cumberland, Belfast and Sheffield then I think we ought to upgrade AGS to Scharnhorst.....

IMO if you did that you might as well upgrade AGS to Bismarck. As far as three cruisers are concerned, it wouldn't make a lot of difference and they would all be sunk or run away. Actually Scharnhorst might be worse than Bismarck because she was faster and her shells are still devastating (as AGS shells are as well) but her armor can't be penetrated by the British. AGS's armor can be penetrated by 8", which is why the CA gets hit first and we are back at River Platt.

[tommy303]

I agree with Bgile, a Scharnhorst class battleship would be a very dangerous opponent even for two Town Class cruisers and a County class in daylight and in good weather. Her guns were more powerful than the 28cm of the AGS, ranging farther at higher velocities and with a much more effective AP and base fuzed HE shell, and a high enough speed to be able to hold the enemy at arms length--well within her own guns' effective zone but outside of the enemy's. Three turrets would also allow her to split her fire a bit more effectively than AGS was able to--two turrets could concentrate on the County and the other could keep the Towns at a distance.

Two Towns and a County class cruiser would be much more than AGS could handle, but if Langsdorff commanded Gneisenau or Scharnhorst, it would be a whole new ball game.

[Gary]

If Langsdorff had had Scharnhorst then I think the Admiralty would have had to dispatch Hood To the South Atlantic.
I dont know the Royal navies Aircraft carrier position in late 1939 off hand but another carrier would be needed to join the hunt (Where were Hermes and Eagle at that time?)

[Bgile]

If Langsdorff had had Scharnhorst then I think the Admiralty would have had to dispatch Hood To the South Atlantic.
I dont know the Royal navies Aircraft carrier position in late 1939 off hand but another carrier would be needed to join the hunt (Where were Hermes and Eagle at that time?)

Scharnhorst really doesn't have the range to operate in the South Atlantic. We were just throwing around combat ideas.

[RF]

Scharnhorst really doesn't have the range to operate in the South Atlantic. We were just throwing around combat ideas.

For 1939/40 the German supply ship operation could have facilitated such an operation without too much risk to the Germans.

[RF]

If Langsdorff had had Scharnhorst then I think the Admiralty would have had to dispatch Hood To the South Atlantic.
I dont know the Royal navies Aircraft carrier position in late 1939 off hand but another carrier would be needed to join the hunt (Where were Hermes and Eagle at that time?)

Or Renown or Repulse.....

Ark Royal was present in the South Atlantic in 1939. Her planes intercepted Altmark, which successfully passed herself off as the American ship Delmar...