Hipper vs. Graf Spee

[Bgile]

So we are going to give Hipper the edge because ... what ... she has a better crew? I thought Hipper came out on the losing end of at least one engagement where she was essentially taken out of the war by one cruiser shell. Am I incorrect in this?

I don't dispute that the Germans did sometimes go to "good rapid" fire once a good solution and a straddle was obtained.

[lwd]

I certianly wouldn't go that far. In fact I remember being very impressed by the quality of GS shooting at the River Platte. See:
http://www.bobhenneman.info/bhbrp.htm
Straddled Exter with her third salvo and had three hits by her 8th.

In otherwords I'm not sure there is a crew quality difference even if we took this into account.

[Dave Saxton]

..... I thought Hipper came out on the losing end of at least one engagement where she was essentially taken out of the war by one cruiser shell. Am I incorrect in this?
.....

You are incorrect or at least over simplifying. The Hipper was taken out of the battle by an untimely message reminding its command "not to take unnecessary risks", and it was taken out of the war by Hitler's irrational order to have it scrapped. Why repair it in that case?

I think the 11-inch is a more dangerous weapon, and I think the AGS probably would have defeated an 8" cruiser 1 on 1 in most cases, BTW.

[Gerard Heimann]

Dave, I am unsuccessful in discovering the ranges for the convoy battle but your further detail about that operation and with Hipper's good shooting at Barents, my inexpert estimation of Hipper's overall good shooting seems reasonably supported.

Bgile, being taken out of battle with one shot does not reflect one way or the other on Hipper's ability to shoot. Certainly in this scenario, there would be no issue regarding the authority and will to fight.

This scenario was conceived with the understanding that both ships had fairly good shooting histories and were not a bad competitive match. That seems to be the case. No doubt that Graf Spee's 11" shells are a heavy (pardon the pun) advantage, but Hipper's very high shooting accuracy, rate of fire and speed would cancel a good portion of that edge.

One further consideration. Would the deployable 2 sets of Hipper's midship torpedo tubes provide any advantage versus Graf Spee's one useful stern placement set? Or would the most sensible battle range leave them out of the equation?

[Bgile]

Dave, I am unsuccessful in discovering the ranges for the convoy battle but your further detail about that operation and with Hipper's good shooting at Barents, my inexpert estimation of Hipper's overall good shooting seems reasonably supported.

Bgile, being taken out of battle with one shot does not reflect one way or the other on Hipper's ability to shoot. Certainly in this scenario, there would be no issue regarding the authority and will to fight.

This scenario was conceived with the understanding that both ships had fairly good shooting histories and were not a bad competitive match. That seems to be the case. No doubt that Graf Spee's 11" shells are a heavy (pardon the pun) advantage, but Hipper's very high shooting accuracy, rate of fire and speed would cancel a good portion of that edge.

One further consideration. Would the deployable 2 sets of Hipper's midship torpedo tubes provide any advantage versus Graf Spee's one useful stern placement set? Or would the most sensible battle range leave them out of the equation?

You mention Hippers "very high shooting accuracy". Are you implying that for some reason Hipper was inherently a more accurate system by design? Because I thought we were discussing the merits of the two ships and not their crews. The 11" gun obviously would have significantly better ballistics.

With respect to the torpedo advantage, I'd definitely give that to AGS if she lands an 11" shell near either of Hipper's sets. That is the main reason the USN got rid of them on cruisers. At the range they will be fighting, torpedoes represent more of a threat to the ship having them than the intended target.

[Dave Saxton]

I don't understand why Hipper's shooting on widely different occasions should mainly be the function of its crew. The crew was probably typical. The PG also displayed good shooting though out, and as pointed out the AGS displayed excellant shooting with its SA battery at Rio de Platte. I wouldn't expect the AGS's crew to be significantly less efficient than Hipper's, although the shooting conditions in the three ocassions for Hipper were significantly more difficult. Actually at Barents, some accounts mention that the crew of the Hipper may have been rather rusty, with some suffering from sea sickness, after having been bottled up in port for awhile. The Luetzow's shooting at Barents was rather good as well, although it was limited to just a few breif episodes.

[RF]

I certianly wouldn't go that far. In fact I remember being very impressed by the quality of GS shooting at the River Platte. See:
http://www.bobhenneman.info/bhbrp.htm
Straddled Exter with her third salvo and had three hits by her 8th.

But not so good in firing at Ajax and Achilles.

[RF]

The Luetzow's shooting at Barents was rather good as well, although it was limited to just a few breif episodes.

I don't recall that Kapitan Stanges' role in this episode to be very effective. Lutzow had the opportunity to do real damage to the convoy, but didn't because Stange hesitated to open fire for fear of shooting at the three destroyers accompying Hipper.

[lwd]

I certianly wouldn't go that far. In fact I remember being very impressed by the quality of GS shooting at the River Platte. See:
http://www.bobhenneman.info/bhbrp.htm
Straddled Exter with her third salvo and had three hits by her 8th.

But not so good in firing at Ajax and Achilles.

But she had already lost her main director at that point.

[Gerard Heimann]

I don't know enough to imply that Hipper's design was inherently better. My point was to say that, based on the evidence of more than one use of its guns, Hipper demonstrated very good results under difficult conditions. Hipper's shooting crew is part of her capabilities, just as are her speed and 8 guns. Given PG's performance at Denmark Strait and as a floating battery whose accurate fire in support of retreating land troops was recorded, it appears to my untrained eye that the shooting platform of the Hipper class was commendable.

Bgile's answer regarding torpedo ineffectiveness due to the likely range of fighting is what I supposed. However, I don't see the comparative point regarding a hit on Hipper's torpedo station as the same proposed debility is in effect with Graf Spee should Hipper land a shot on its torpedo station.

[Dave Saxton]

I don't recall that Kapitan Stanges' role in this episode to be very effective. Lutzow had the opportunity to do real damage to the convoy, but didn't because Stange hesitated to open fire for fear of shooting at the three destroyers accompying Hipper.

That is correct and that is the key to understanding the outcome of the battle. Had Stange not hestitated it would have been a German victory. He was perfectly set up. Nonetheless, I would expect just about any commander to have acted much the same given the uncertainty of friend and foe. The failure was a mainly due to tactical reasons rather than the result of the fighting capabilities of the ships and their crews.

When the Luetzow did finally open fire, its shooting was at ranges exceeding 16,700 meters and actually quite accurate. The first 28cm salvo was over and the first 15cm salvo was short but it then settled into a consistent straddling for the next seven minutes. Another breif episode of fire was at 15,400 meters and the destroyer Obdurate was seriously damaged. Just as the Luetzow was getting warmed up it was ordered to follow the Hipper in decamping due to the sixth (!) no unnecessary risks reminder Kummetz had recieved from authorities ashore.

[JtD]

Wouldn't all this boil down to speed vs. firepower mostly? 4x6" are probably not worse than 2x8" in this scenario, leaving it 6x11" vs. 6x8". This gives Graf Spee an advantage in terms of firepower. With similar protection, the only real advantage of Hipper would be speed; it thus could use it to fight to her advantage.

Eventually, I think the match up is even enough to say that the actual outcome would mostly be a matter of luck.

[RF]

Hipper had the advantage of speed providing its dodgy engines weren't playing up.

[lwd]

Hipper had the advantage of speed providing its dodgy engines weren't playing up.

That's a good point but I'm not sure how we factor it in. Due to the high pressure nature of her systems would they have been more vulnerable to battle damage?

My personal opinion on this is still a slight advantage for Hipper but I suspect if you had a "good" simulation of naval combat and ran it 100 times the numbers would be close enough that no statistically signficant difference could be determined.

[Tiornu]

Hipper's armor scheme is inferior by a considerable margin. The protection is thicker for the main battery, but hardly enough to compensate for the difference in the incoming ordnance.