Alternative WW1 Battle of the Falklands

[RF]

The German battlecruiser Von der Tann early in its career was intended to be based at Tsingtao in China. However this never happened, leaving only Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as the main strength of the German Asiatic Fleet.
But suppose VdT had been stationed in the Far East from spring 1914 and was Spee's flagship on 8th December 1914. Would the 1914 battle, with VdT accompanying Scharnhorst and Gneisenau against Invincible and Inflexible have resulted in German victory? Especially as VdT , with its wing turret,could fire on both British battlecruisers at the same time - with the two armoured cruisers providing support?

Does anyone think that this scenario bears similarities to the DS battle between Bismarck and Hood?

[marcelo_malara]

Hi Robert:

What I have always think, is that Spee shoud have closed the BCs and not try to run, his 8.2in guns would have done much damage to the thinly armoured BC.

[RF]

This is an interesting proposition. Gneisenau, scouting for the force, came in close to Stanley harbour before sighting the masts of the two battlecruisers, still at anchor. What would have happened if Kapian Maerker had opened fire with his 8.2 inch at that point and crippled one of the battlecruisers while it was a sitting target? Visions of Pearl Harbor?

I believe that Spee elected for a running fight because it would give the light cruisers in the German force a better chance of getting away - it gives them more time to spread out fanwise and increase their distance from the British ships. It was only a very partial success, as only Dresden escaped.

The presence of VdT I think would have dramatically changed the whole battle; it would no longer be a running fight in open sea.

[RF]

his 8.2in guns would have done much damage to the thinly armoured BC.

I believe both British battlecruisers were hit several times by 8.2 inch but I am not clear as to exactly how severe this damage was. Evidently it did not impair either ships fighting capabilities....

[marcelo_malara]

May be Spee´s idea was that he could run till the night (or bad weather) let him loss his chasers.

[RF]

Possibly, although there was hardly any propect of that happening. Invincible and Inflexible had the speed and reach advantage.

[dougieo]

his 8.2in guns would have done much damage to the thinly armoured BC.

I believe both British battlecruisers were hit several times by 8.2 inch but I am not clear as to exactly how severe this damage was. Evidently it did not impair either ships fighting capabilities....

Invincible took twelve 8.2in, six 5.9in and four other hits that could not be identified. No mention of Inflexible

According to Brown in The Grand Fleet, His source was "Battlecruisers" by Cambell if anyone has it.

[marcelo_malara]

Hi Dougieo:

Isn´t it Battlecruisers by Roberts?

Anyway, what I mean, is that instead of running, he should have entered Stanleý´s anchorage, and shell the BCs at short range and with no place for them to move and open ranges. He came so close to the entrace as to see the masts of the ships inside, he should have pressed on the attack. That was his only chance.
Once he chose to escape, his only possibility was to loose his persuaders. That part of the world is of very bad weather, may be he expected the visibility to deteriorate and shake the British.

[RF]

what I mean, is that instead of running, he should have entered Stanleý´s anchorage, and shell the BCs at short range and with no place for them to move and open ranges. He came so close to the entrace as to see the masts of the ships inside, he should have pressed on the attack. That was his only chance.

But only Gneisenau could have done that - and Spee was stuck on Scharnhorst, which he had held back in the open Atlantic while Gneisenau did the reconnaisance. Gneisenau would have to do that job on its own, and presenting itself as a target for three vessels sporting 12 inch guns - Invincible, Inflexible and Canopus. A total of twenty 12 inchers versus eight 8.2 inch and six 5.9 inch. Mearker made the right decision - get out of there. Unfortunately for him it wasn't enough. If Scharnhorst had been in company with Gneisenau then I think matters would have been very different.

[JtD]

Would von der Tann have the range to participate in operations as done by the cruisers?

Wouldn't the presence of vdT ensure a stronger British reaction, like a third or fourth BC?

To answer the original question, I'm fairly conviced that vdT would have made a difference, and that the entire battle would have been fought in a very different way. I suppose it would have lead to one large fleet vs. fleet battle instead of the many historical few vs. few actions. I'd guess that vdT may have damaged the I's to an extend that these could not maintain their speed advantage over the German fleet, giving the Germans the option to disengage, which they at that time would probably chose.

Regarding that battle, I've read somewhere that the Germans used gunnery tables that were intended for the Northern hemisphere and thus had the Coriolus effect figured the wrong way round. It didn't matter much at the East-West battle at Coronel, but lead to poor gunnery at the North-South battle at Falklands. Is that true?

[dougieo]

Hi Dougieo:

Isn´t it Battlecruisers by Roberts?

Anyway, what I mean, is that instead of running, he should have entered Stanleý´s anchorage, and shell the BCs at short range and with no place for them to move and open ranges. He came so close to the entrace as to see the masts of the ships inside, he should have pressed on the attack. That was his only chance.
Once he chose to escape, his only possibility was to loose his persuaders. That part of the world is of very bad weather, may be he expected the visibility to deteriorate and shake the British.

Hi

This was just a small comment he made in "The Grand Fleet", I have not read his "Battlecruisers" bookas of yet that I would assume would go into it in much more detail.

He was talking about the battlecruisers ability to absobe punishment, mentions the Lion at Dogger Bank and Tiger at Jutland. If there magazines dont go BOOM they seem to be ok.

[marcelo_malara]

I am far from home now. When back will look in Battlecruisers to see what he says.

Regards

[RF]

Would von der Tann have the range to participate in operations as done by the cruisers?

Wouldn't the presence of vdT ensure a stronger British reaction, like a third or fourth BC?

Regarding that battle, I've read somewhere that the Germans used gunnery tables that were intended for the Northern hemisphere and thus had the Coriolus effect figured the wrong way round. It didn't matter much at the East-West battle at Coronel, but lead to poor gunnery at the North-South battle at Falklands. Is that true?

Quite possibly there might be a stronger British presence but the Admiralty at the time was concerned about sending two BC's anyway, for fear of weakening the British Grand Fleet.
Spee had a train of colliers supplying him, plus coal and other supplies purchased from Chile, when his force stopped off in Valparaiso.

Regarding gunnery at the Falklands battle, the Germans hit Inflexible first, at their extreme range. There is no evidence I am aware of that German gunnery was deficient, though of course during the chase period only half of the 8.2 inch guns would bear.

[marcelo_malara]

The Corilis force will deviate a shell (any object in general) moving N to S as well as E to W.

[IronDuke]

In general terms the German High Seas Fleet Heavy units were short ranged, and also had relatively poor crew accommodation for long voyages.

If the Germans had had a Battle Cruiser in the Pacific, firstly the British would probably have had at least two (to say nothing of the Allied Japanese Navy) and secondly could the German Admiral have found the coal to move her across the Pacific?

IF the Germans had a Battle Cruiser in the Pacific and IF the RN did not sink her in the Pacific and IF they could find the coal to get her to South American Waters, then my guess would be that the Admiralty would have sent three-four British Battle Cruisers, instead of two (which they could safely do given the HSF would also be short of a Battle Cruiser). In that situation the Battle still probably ends up being an RN victory.

However bear in mind Von Spee's Squadron did not retire, as they initially thought, in the face of two RN Battle Cruisers. They retired from what they initially thought was one or perhaps two RN Pre-Dreadnought Battleships, after HMS Canopus fired at them. It was only after they started retiring that the German Admiral realised he faced to Battle Cruisers and stood not much chance of seeing the next dawn... This action was in fact one of the few occasions when British Battle Cruisers were used in the way Fisher originally intended: To hunt down and destroy enemy Cruisers.

In any case given that the High Seas Fleet were using the large Armoured Cruiser Blucher with there Scouting (Battle Cruiser) Force, it seems unlikely they ever seriously thought of sending a real Battle Cruiser to the Pacific...
Ted