Tirpitz instead of Scharnhorst in North Cape

[alecsandros]

I've dug this up today...

From the replies of the thread, we can see that the Tirpitz's fighting capabilities were underestimated... It actualy had a very good (integrated) fire control system, very good radar, very precise targeting computers on board, etc... Moreover, it's high metacentric height made it a much better gun platform than Scharnhorst and than Duke of York in heavy seas.
Anyway, I think the outcome would have been the same... But the damage suffered by British ships would probably have been greater, with DoY probably receiving several 38cm hits, and maybe Norfolk sunk.

But what would you think about a combined task force - Tirpitz + Scharnhorst in the same conditions of the Battle of the North Cape... ?

[RF]

The key is whether Tirpitz and Scharnhorst remain in company, that their firepower can be concentrated. If DOY is engaged, the British ship has to concentrate fire on Tirpitz; Scharnhorst has freedom to fire on DOY without facing 14 inch fire, but would its shells cause much damage to a KGV?

[alecsandros]

No, I don't think the 11" could do much to DoY... Not enough punch and, worst still, not enough stability on heavy seas for the 3x3 turrets to be marginaly effective... And, IIRC, Scharnhorst was one of the heavy German ships "left out" from the fire control upgrade done in the 41-42... On paper, there were several critical zones on DoY vulnerable to 11" fire (primary and secondary control towers, radars, directors, steering gear to some extent...), but I wouldn't make a bet on Scharnhorst to score any important hits... Unless, of course, it would obtain a very good relative positioning and some lucky shots...

Maybe if Tirpitz would score some decisive blows on DoY early in the battle, they would have a chance... After all, it was pretty much the environment for which Tirpitz was designed to fight: close-to-medium range battles, in heavy seas and bad visibility...

[RF]

But Scharnhorst at least wouldn't be under serious fire itself and thus having to chase salvoes......

[lwd]

If there was a good chance of encountering both German battleships wouldn't the British have increased the size of their force as well?

[alecsandros]

If there was a good chance of encountering both German battleships wouldn't the British have increased the size of their force as well?

That would be another scenario. I would like to see your opinions about this one...

[lwd]

If there was a good chance of encountering both German battleships wouldn't the British have increased the size of their force as well?

That would be another scenario. I would like to see your opinions about this one...

You have a two on one as far as battleships go. The Tirpitze and Duke of York are relativly evenly matched (I'd give a slight edge to Tirpitz) throw in Scharnhorst and the British have to hope for a lucky torpedo or shell hit to have a chance. In any case either of these are a big step away from the original and probalby should have their own thread.

[alecsandros]

You have a two on one as far as battleships go. The Tirpitze and Duke of York are relativly evenly matched (I'd give a slight edge to Tirpitz)

I don't know about that. For the ranges at which the battle was fought (10-20km), DoY didn't actualy have ANY immunity zone against 38cm gunfire. All of its sections were vulnerable at normal obliquities... Tirpitz on the other hand had the entire belly beneath the panzer deck, taht could not be hit under any normal circumstances by the 14" shells... Tirpitz was more stable, had higehr rate of fire and much more reliable turrets and guns. It was larger, faster, and more agile. It had RPC, while DoY didn't. The only clear advantage for DoY is the bigger number of main guns... But at 66% output, it's hardly comforting.

throw in Scharnhorst and the British have to hope for a lucky torpedo or shell hit to have a chance

Wait a minute. There were other ships involved - 1 CA, 3 CLs, and a big number of DDs (9 IIRC). Those ships are not to be left out, as they can easily turn the tide with several torpedo spreads and/or disabling radars/directors of the German BBs with their shellfire. And the German BBs did not have enough secondary batteries to keep them all at a distance...

[RF]

Well, if Tirpitz does have a slight edge over DOY then the German Fleet Commander could order Scharnhorst to sink Norfolk, Jamaica and the destroyers in the RN force.. So Tirpitz can get on with the job of tackling DOY without interference from other British ships.

And of course there are the German destroyers as well. If DOY is heavily hit and slowed down by Tirpitz, they could be ordered to make torpedo attacks on DOY....

[alecsandros]

But could the German DDs keep up with the heavy ships in such an arctic storm ? And could Scharnhorst tackle so many small ships on its own ? Let's remember that during the sinking of the carrier HMS Glorious, Scharnhorst AND Gneisenau could not keep 2 destroyers out of torpedo range... Both German ships were torpedoed then... And now we're having 9 DDs and 3 CLs AND 1 CA...

[RF]

I think these are important questions and the answers can only really be got at by wargaming the situation over and over again - which is likely to come up with a variety of different outcomes. With three 11 inch turrets plus 12 5.9 inch guns Scharnhorst on paper should be able to deal a heavy cruiser (first), a light cruiser (second) plus attendant destroyers. But there again it is in poor conditions. Note with respect to DOY it would have to be slowed down so the German destroyers can catch up and also its 5.25 inch guns would also have to be degraded as well.

As an aside in another thread I did pose the question of an alternative Battle of the River Plate in which AGS is replaced with Scharnhorst and Cumberland is added to the British force. The consensus view was a walkover for Scharnhorst, though this obviously would in clear conditions on a virtual flat calm.

With respect to Glorious, only Scharnhorst was torpedoed by Acasta, and that was because of an error of judgement by Hoffman. I believe the torpedo hit on Gneisenau came some time later courtesy of a British submarine.

[alecsandros]

On paper Scharnhorst had a very powerfull arsenal. In reality however, I don't think it was such a good fighter, especialy on bad seas. [A parrallel could be drawn to the encounter between Schar + Gneisenau and Renown. Allthough the 2 German battlecruisers had 18 x 283mm guns versus only 6 x 381mm guns, they still did not inflict more damage than they received, and were forced to withdraw]. In the Glorious matter, I may be mistaken. But what I wanted to point out first and foremost was that 2 (old) destroyers managed to get within 3km of the heavy ships, and launch 2 spreads of 8 torpedoes each. It's true that both DDs have been sunk, but it's scary to see 2 heavy raiders not being able to keep 2 DDs at arm's length... What about 9 DDs and 3 CLs by a single battlecruiser ... ?

[Dave Saxton]

Allthough the 2 German battlecruisers had 18 x 283mm guns versus only 6 x 381mm guns, they still did not inflict more damage than they received, and were forced to withdraw]

Luetjens being forced to withdraw in this case was more the result of the weather/light conditions and the tactical circumstances, more than a matter of relative fighting strength. The Gneisenau's radar picked up the Renown group from 25,000 meters before the dawn. If this hadn't have happened, then there would have been no battle at all as the Germans closing range to investigate the radar contacts brought the opposing enemys together. By the time Luetjens had got close enough to determine what the radar contacts were, the Renown had already sighted them visually against the back drop of the rising sun from 10,000 yards. Although the Germans had the numbers advantage (heavy ships only, as the British also had 9 dds), the Renown held a significant tactical advantage by virtue of the lighting conditions and the heavy weather, unless the German radar (the British had no radar) could equalize the situation. However, Scharnhorst's radar set broke down making Scharnhorst ineffective and essentially making it a 1:1 fight. Gneisenau's radar stayed in the fight allowing GN to quickly score hits. But when a 15" shell passed through GN's foretop, it severed the electrical power supply to the foretop equipment including Gneiesnau's radar set. Now the situation was very dangerous for the Germans sans radar, especially considering the nine destroyers, (although the Germans were unsure of the addtional ship types). Then Luetjens really had no other choice but to seek to disengage.

[Dave Saxton]

For the ranges at which the battle (North Cape final and second to last phases) was fought (10-20km),........

These ranges occured because the Sharnhorst had lost its forward radars to battle damage. Bey was not aware of Duke of York's location and continued to steam southbound at 26 knots. Fraser allowed SH to close range so Sh would be less likely to use its superior speed to escape. Had SH 's radars not been taken out, Bey would have never allowed Fraser to get that close. If Fraser had engaged at the farthest range its radar could be used to develop a firing soultion (23,400 meters) then Sharnhorst would surely have escaped.

With TP and SH together, and likely not being radar blind foreward, the German just keep Fraser at arms length; perhaps the TP and SH engaging DoY and others with radar from long range- before DoY or consort can reply- as they increase range. But the faster German task force is not going to seek out prolonged battle with warships even though they may have fighting advantages. Their mission is against convoys not to fight naval battles if they can help it.

[tommy303]

What about 9 DDs and 3 CLs

The British were able to launch effective torpedo attacks only after Scharnhorst had been slowed down and because much of her secondary armament was useless due to the heavy seas. With the prevailing sea conditions, Scharnhorst (and Tirpitz had she been with her) could have out paced the destroyers and light cruiser with little problem provided nothing happened to slow them up.