Hood vs. Scharnhorst

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

all those do matter....


but then why would the Hood let a close encounter happen?
if she can finish Scharnhorst off from long range...
there would be no need for Hood to close in...


adios
miro
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Terje Langoy
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Hello again...

I see your point and I totally agree with you. In such a scenario I'll also favour the Hood. :D

But then, back to the question in my first post. Say this encounter occured in the Denmark Strait (Of course a very suitable place for an encounter with the Hood) An early morning during spring months. A low overcast, frequent rain squalls, mist and low visiblity. The sea and sky almost floating in to one another. And the BC's discover one another at a distance of, say ten to twelve miles. What then?
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Miro777:
hey....

if we include decisions taken by commanders, etc...
then we could never assess a battle between two ships...
because we can never really predict wat a commander would hav done at wat moment, etc

one thing is the weather....
both ships were very WET ships...
still i think the Scharnhorst would be worse affected....

and even with 15in guns....i must say the odds are still on for the Hood...

although i LOVE the scharnhorst...
I agree with miro. We cannot access the human factors that could be included in a battle. But something for sure: those factors are, sometimes, more important than gun size, or armour, or speed. Just see Denmarck Straits. There Lutjens could had two British capital ships within an hour and what he did: he disengage. And before that the Hood and PoW had the statistical advantage being two capital ships against only one capital ship plus a cruiser.
Just the thought...

Terje Langoy:
Are you norwegian? My dad is norwegian from Fredickstadt. :D )I´m sure I misspelled the place´s name)

Best regards
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Terje Langoy
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Hello, Karl...

yes, I'm as norwegian as they get. So, your dad's from Fredrikstad? A former navy man, perhaps?

I also agree on Miros perspective. When I think about it, the human factor and nature seems to be the crucial factors rather than technical aspects. But as Miro also said, you cant access a hypothetical battle considering that. Maybe I'd go for the Hood though I don't like the Scharnhorst losing a battle :D

Regards
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Hi Terje,

my dad served with the Norwegian Air Force in 1953 NATO in a base called Fornebu (This I´m sure is misspelled) and later they sent him to Bodo.
He told me that in Fornebu they had a Tiger Tank that was used by the German and the Norwegians confiscated.

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An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Terje Langoy
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Hello again...

You didn't misspell Fornebu at all. :D But if they have a Tiger tanks over there I guess I'll have to pay the place a visit very soon. In fact, I live not too far from a coastal fort where the B turret of the Gneisenau is placed. While speaking of german war artefacts in Norway, of course...

Regards
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

I didn´t mispelled Fornebu? Wow! Yeah, my dad have been telling me about that tank for 40 years. Let´s spect that no bureacrat had decided to sell it as scrap metal or something.

Are there no rests of the Blucher or the Tirpitz there?

Very best regards.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Terje Langoy
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Hi...

I've learned that portions of the armoured hull plating of the Tirpitz is being used to cover up holes during road work in Oslo even to this day... Whether it's true I don't know but that's what I've heard. It's kind of funny but also sad to think the traffic in Oslo have been driving across the armoured plating of the Tirpitz all these years without even knowing it. Supposedly they are in just as good conditions today. If you'd like, I could try to check up on this and confirm or dismiss that information...

I wonder, having seen the photos of the capsized Tirpitz, if her turrets were scrapped. As with the Bismarck, I guess they were kept in place by their own weight and so should have left their barbettes as she capsized. I don't know. Does anyone here know what happened to them?

Regards
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Maybe Antonio Bonomi, he knows everything about Tirpitz.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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RF
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Post by RF »

Terje Langoy wrote:Hi...

I've learned that portions of the armoured hull plating of the Tirpitz is being used to cover up holes during road work in Oslo even to this day... Whether it's true I don't know but that's what I've heard. It's kind of funny but also sad to think the traffic in Oslo have been driving across the armoured plating of the Tirpitz all these years without even knowing it. Supposedly they are in just as good conditions today. If you'd like, I could try to check up on this and confirm or dismiss that information...

Regards
If it is true at least a constructive use is being made of Tirpitz now. I wouldn't mind a bit of Tirpitz on my driveway for my car if the Norwegians can spare it!!!!!
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

hey....
no, that wouldn't be a nice thing...
to drive over the last remains of such a proud battleship...
in which so many people died....
ships that sink, should always be kept where they sank...
ships in museums and all....they are just in the wrong place...
they should be in the water....where they belong...


adios
miro
Die See ruft....
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Terje Langoy
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Hello...

I agree with Miro on this one :D The ship was, as far as I can recall, scrapped shortly after she capsized thus never getting the status that for instance the California got at Pearl (I think it's the California) But then she was not completely sunk if you know what I mean. I guess they couldn't have her lying there with her bottom up either. To be honest, I don't know what would be the proper thing to do :think:

While talking of German warship wrecks, I read that there was a trial going on up in the north concerning a diver that had been removing items from various sites. It's good to see that they bring such people to justice. It's just unmoral (Guess that's the word) to do such things...

This doesn't concern any hypotethical scenarios too much, so if there's a wish to pursue this topic I suggest we take it onto a new thread :wink:

Best regards
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miro777
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Post by miro777 »

hey...
i agree...
and i think u mean the USS. Arizona...
which was made into a memorial at Pearl...

i could be wrong as i think the USS Utha was also made into one...but i think the Arizona is the famous one...


adios
miro
Die See ruft....
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tommy303
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Post by tommy303 »

Yes, there is a modest USS Utah memorial near the wreck, but not straddling it like the Arizona.

http://www.ussutah.org/

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Post by Karl Heidenreich »

All warships sunk MUST BE memorials and/or military cementeries, not a resource for cheap scrap metal. It´s not important which side they fought.
In France there are a lot of German cementeries and nobody is disturbing them because those places are sacred. The sunken ships must be leave alone.
The only way, I think, that this policy doesn´t apply is if someone wants to raise the complete vessel, give Christian burial to the remains found inside and take the ship to a musseum or somewhere were it works as a memorial.

Let´s have the USS Intrepid in New York. There were casualties on board, and heavy ones by Japanese Kamikazes. But now the ship is open for everyone who want to visist it, as I have done in three ocassions.

Best regards.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
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