Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

dunmuro:
If I commanded a pair of KGV's and had to tackle Yamato, I would attempt a strategy that maximizes my chances of success. This doesn't necessarily mean that I would be confident of victory...
Wisely spoken, very wise.
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by lwd »

...That means that the accuracy will be lowered bacause of range and shells splashing from both ships, and increased because of large numbers of said shells, like 24 shells a minute.
At long range I doubt you are going to see 24 shells a minute. If it's late enough that the KGVs have radar that allows a decent hit probability over 30,000 yards and they elect to engage in such an engagment the ROF is more liely to be under 20 shells/minute and there is no reason that the two can not coordinate so as to avoid splash confusion. It will result in a slightly lower ROF (perhpas) but should be worth it.
Karl Heidenreich wrote: Almost impossible, if not totally imposible. Yamato would have destroyed the KGV before something like could happen. ...
I do love how you state your opinions as if they were facts. The failure of Yamato and company to destroy more than one CVE points to at least one historical data point indicating that she would destroy two KGVs quickly being some what optomistic. I suspect that this engagment would in most cases not result in any ships sunk. However I also suspect that Yamato would end up a wreck as would at least one KGV. Of coure any of the three could do a Hood proving me almost completely worng.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

lwd:
I do love how you state your opinions as if they were facts.
I love that you love me :stop: But it isn´t the same thing you always do? Only that the other way around... If someone here expresses himself in absolutes is you.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

lwd:
The failure of Yamato and company to destroy more than one CVE points to at least one historical data point indicating that she would destroy two KGVs quickly being some what optomistic.
As with Bismarck at DS the Japanese´s bad score during that particular encounter at Leyte was due to it ´s generalship, to the commanding officer that, without any doubt, lost it´s nerve. Have been another Japanese commander there, Halsey would have gone in naval history as the USN commander who performed the worst blunder of the WWII and, likely, of the whole existence of the Navy.

Given the chance what do you believe would have happened with that US Task Force in front of Yamato and it´s companions? That´s what was in the mind of a real hero, the commander of USS Johnson, who did fight like a tiger because he, instead of us, knew what was likely to happened if he didn´t save time...
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by Legend »

lwd: In that particular occasion I believe the Japanese force was thinking the... Oh I forgot the ship name, that little escort carrier... they thought it was part of the big carrier force in the area, so they used AP rounds for piercing big carrier armor rather than the thin armor... Gambier Bay! That was it... the AP rounds from Yamato went through her like (really big) rocks through glass, they just put holes in her like swiss cheese. IF Yamato had used HE rounds she would have destroyed Gambier Bay without question.
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by lwd »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:... But it isn´t the same thing you always do? ....
For once I'll make an unequivicable statement. NO.
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by lwd »

Legend wrote:lwd: In that particular occasion I believe the Japanese force was thinking the... Oh I forgot the ship name, that little escort carrier... they thought it was part of the big carrier force in the area, so they used AP rounds for piercing big carrier armor rather than the thin armor... Gambier Bay! That was it... the AP rounds from Yamato went through her like (really big) rocks through glass, they just put holes in her like swiss cheese. IF Yamato had used HE rounds she would have destroyed Gambier Bay without question.
Gambier bay was sunk. However CVs had minimal armor if you are firing BB caliber guns at a CV you should be using HE. It's not clear that a single round from Yamato hit any of the CVE's indeed it's not clear if her main battery hit anything that day although there's a good chance her secondaries did.
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by bb_56 »

I'm going with the KGV's on this one. I have some doubt on the dependability of the 18" shell. The Japanese would have hesatated using Yamato in an engagement for fear of losing her and would have given the British time to get in closer. As with 2 North Carolina's then it would have even been worse for Yamato even though the North Carolina was designed to withstand a 14" shell. I would have to say that at least one KGV would have been badly bludgeoned but not both.
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by tommy303 »

I'm going with the KGV's on this one. I have some doubt on the dependability of the 18" shell. The Japanese would have hesatated using Yamato in an engagement for fear of losing her and would have given the British time to get in closer.
Out interest, why do you doubt the dependability of the 18-inch shells--presuming you are referring to the APCBC? There is comparatively little, if any comparative analysis as to how they performed in action.

The assumption that the Japanese might have hesitated might not be well founded. While it is true they did not commit the super battleships to action all that often, it was mostly because they were a drain on the oil supply and not fast enough for the pace of carrier operations. If Yamato did find herself confronted by two KGV's , I would imagine that the Japanese would not have hesitated to open fire and engage, particularly if we assume this to be an action without other participants.

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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by lwd »

Well they were also saving them for the "Decisive Battle". Of course that's rather outside the scope of this thread which supposes for whatever reason that the three ships meet and engage.
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by Legend »

Okay, that's a scenario that WOULD make the two KGv's destroy the Yamato's rear end... The captain of Big Y gets orders to flee to save the ship from damage and possable sinking... So with her running and KGV's hot on her tail... If the two of them catch up and start to fire... the twelve forward guns of the KGV's vs the three of Yamato's would beat her until the ship's command was destroyed or the captain made the ship pull a full broadside...
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by jazsa80 »

The way I see it Yamato could cop 30-40 direct hits and still keep trucking, where the KGV'v are looking at penetrating hits pretty much from the word go. Have no idea where I pulled that 30-40 number from but it sounds good. Hope you guys get the jist of what Im saying and that Im right.

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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by tommy303 »

I think what LWD meant was that the Japanese would not have sent her forth until she was needed for a decisive battle. In all probability if she were simply out on her own and met up with two KGVs, she would not have turned tail and run for it as she would not have had the speed to do so. Most likely she would have turned to attack in true samurai spirit.

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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by lwd »

Exactly. A chance to fight against enemy BB's would not be disregarded lightly by the captain of Yamato.

I'm not sure where the idea came from that Yamato would still be functional after 30 or 40 hits. At the best her uper works including fire control would be a wreck other unarmored parts would be in bad shape and especially if the fire came all or mostly from one side penetrations of her armor are possible. At the very least I suspect she would be seriously degraded after less than half that number of hits.
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Re: Two KGV's vs. Yamato

Post by Bgile »

Ideally the British would use HC shells, but they wouldn't be expected to do so and I doubt they carry many Hc in a normal loadout. 14" AP would do much less damage to Yamato than HC at all but very long range.

Of course 30 to 40 hits is very unlikely because at least one of the British ships will likely be taking 18" hits.

Anything is possible. I don't think they could sink Yamato with 14" shell fire though. Yamato could sink them with 18" fire, and any result in between the two extremes is possible depending on circumstances and luck.
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