Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

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Nellie
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Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by Nellie » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:45 pm

This is what i call a fair fight, all ships are really equal in speed, the Germans have a slight advantage in firepower but instead i give the british a little favor in protection, lets say they meet in daylight with parallel courses, the first vital hit is very important here as i see it. What strategy would favor the Germans or the British? Interesting i think!!

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by David89 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:50 pm

Are we going to give Vanguard her end of war period radar or limit her to the same set as King George V? Regardless, the British ships have better RFC but knowing the extent to which this superiority extends would be useful. And when does this battle take place? The earliest Vanguard can be ready is 1943, when she was originally scheduled to be completed.

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by Nellie » Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:13 pm

Lets say they meet in 1943 then, and with the latest radar avaliable for both nations.

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by Nellie » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:44 pm

The battle begins att 21000yards and the Germans choose to closing in, Vanguard maintain the distance though, while the KGV with a slightly lower speed must fight under the Gemans condition with a steadily decraising in distance down to 14000yards between them. As i see it Vanguard have the advantage in her long range battle while KGV is in some disadvantage in her short range fight.

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by David89 » Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:52 pm

Nellie wrote:The battle begins att 21000yards and the Germans choose to closing in, Vanguard maintain the distance though, while the KGV with a slightly lower speed must fight under the Gemans condition with a steadily decraising in distance down to 14000yards between them. As i see it Vanguard have the advantage in her long range battle while KGV is in some disadvantage in her short range fight.
If the British ships have their 1943 RFC the battle won't start at 21,000yrds, it could start out well beyonds 30,000yrds when KGV comes into range, though Vanguard will have to wait till 29,000yrds before joining in. And the differences in speed are largely irrelevant, KGV has a top speed of 29.5kts, Vanguard can reach 30kts while Bismarck and Tirpitz can do 30.5kts. There is no logical reason for the British ships to split up, since this will hinder the coordination of fire control and increase the chances of the Germans concentrating fire on one ship, knocking it out faster. If the Germans want to close the range, and the British want to hold it open then the German ships will need to turn in, losing the fire arcs from their rear turrets and increasing the chances of a crippling deck hit, since Bismarck and Tirpitz would not benefit from the protection that the 7in upper belt offers to part of the deck.

Finally, there is little chance that the German ships are going to be in a condition to fight back if they try to run in bows on down to 14,000yrds, they won't have a working main turret or rangefinder left by the time they have closed in that far if the British ships hold the range open by turning away as much as they can while keeping the front turret firing arcs open.

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by Nellie » Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:47 pm

I see your point, but their speed what i know was 28-29knots for KGV and around 30knots for Vanguard,Bismarck and Tirpitz. Thats a question itself, if the Germans will take battle at 25000-30000yards wich is a clear disadvantage for them, or will they try to go for a closer range and at least closing in on KGV.

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by David89 » Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:34 pm

Nellie wrote:I see your point, but their speed what i know was 28-29knots for KGV and around 30knots for Vanguard,Bismarck and Tirpitz. Thats a question itself, if the Germans will take battle at 25000-30000yards wich is a clear disadvantage for them, or will they try to go for a closer range and at least closing in on KGV.
The quoted top speed of 28kts for KGV is at full load, and Bismarck would drop to around this speed at full load because of her greater bunkerage capacity. Prince of Wales ran in excess of 29kts while moving to intercept Bismarck at Denmark Straight, with more than half her fuel load. And in 1943 neither Bismarck or Tirpitz would be able reach 30.5kts, Tirpitz was retrofitted with more light AA guns and was roughly 1,200tons heavier empty and if Bismarck had suvived I expect she would also have been so equiped.

The Germans are disadvantaged in this scenario by their inferior RFC and weaker deck armour, and if they try to close the range they are going a substantial amount of damage in the process, leaving the British ships with an advantage anyway, and reducing the chances of the German ships making an escape. What the German ships should do is use their slight speed advantage to attempt to avoid battle, since the chances of them winning are low. If battle can't be avoided, they should try to close the range as fast as possible.

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by Dave Saxton » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:20 pm

In 1943 the standard Royal Navy GS (Gunnery Surface) radar was Type-284M. This had a max effective range, battleship to battleship, of 29,000 yards. The Royal Navy did not reccomend opening fire until 28,000 yards or less, even late war.

Type-274 began be phased in during late spring 1944.
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by RF » Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:31 pm

Given the level of armour plating this looks like a fairly long range battering match. Does anybody think that this action would result in a sinking? - assuming no interference fom other vessels/aircraft carrying torpedoes.

The reality is that even with the four ships available in 1943 the Germans would avoid this engagement, unless WW2 had taken an entirely different course, with no US involvement.

Nevertheless this does offer a more even scenario than most WW2 battles.
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by dunmunro » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:51 pm

KGV inner immunity range against Bismarck ( and Littorio), using Hood versus Bismarck target angle:

The article by Bill Jurens:
The Loss of HMS Hood A Re-Examination
http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Hood_p1.htm

provides the target angle for Hood, as being 37degs at the time of the fatal hit.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/no21 ... Battle.jpg


So, I'll use that angle and and examine hits on the KGV's 13.7" belt:

KM 38cm @ 2690fps, 2650fps.
RM 15" at 2789fps 2700fps.

(assuming 13.7" belt, on 1" cement, mounted on a .875" D steel hull plate)

RM 15";

RM 15" (MV = 2789 fps) @ 19260yds SV = 1932fps result = no holing of the plate.


RM 15" (MV = 2789 fps) @ 15800yds SV = 2056fps result = Partial penetration, projectile broken up and filler portion propably rejected. Remaining velocity of broken nose = 186fps.

RM 15" (MV = 2789 fps) @ 13930yds SV = 2130fps result = Partial penetration, projectile broken up and filler portion propably rejected. Remaining velocity of broken nose = 283fps.

RM 15" (MV = 2789 fps) @ 11950yds SV = 2212fps result = Partial penetration, projectile nose damaged but projectile probably intact with 932fps velocity. KGV's 14.7" {belt over the magazine would not be holed assuming 5deg plate inclination}

RM 15" (MV = 2700 fps) @ 11280yds SV = 2164fps result = Partial penetration, projectile broken up and filler portion propably rejected. Remaining velocity of broken nose = 417fps. {KGV's 14.7" belt over the magazine would not be holed}

KM 38cm;

KM 38cm (MV = 2690 fps) @ 14480yds SV = 1941fps result = no holing of the plate.

KM 38cm (MV = 2650 fps) @ 10990yds SV = 2056fps result = Partial penetration, projectile broken up and filler portion propably rejected. Remaining velocity of broken nose = 272fps.

KM 38cm (MV = 2650 fps) @ 9080yds SV = 2192fps result = complete penetration, projectile probably not effective, Remaining velocity = 576fps.{belt over the magazine = Partial penetration, projectile broken up and filler portion propably rejected. Remaining velocity of broken nose = 58fps.}

KM 38cm (MV = 2600 fps) @ 8840yds SV = 2169fps result = complete penetration, projectile damaged and probably ineffective. Remaining velocity = 327fps.{KGV's 14.7" belt over the magazine would not be holed}

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by fyrbane » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:17 pm

This fight is still heavely in favour of the british ships with their superior radar and fire control but a lucky hit could change things dramatically. In war nothing is ever certain but in 9 out of 10 cases the brits should win.

By the way Vanguard would have been available in 42 since the Lions would have been available in 43 which was the whole original idea behind Vanguard. Also she would have had a thicker belt armour scheme than the one she had in 46.

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:07 pm

fyrbane wrote:This fight is still heavely in favour of the british ships with their superior radar and fire control but a lucky hit could change things dramatically.
this seems wrong as the capabilities of german radar and firecontrol were at least comparable to their british counterparts.
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by dunmunro » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:08 pm

Type 273 had a secondary gunnery capability, and could range well past 30k yds.

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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by Dave Saxton » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:13 pm

Thorsten Wahl wrote:
fyrbane wrote:This fight is still heavely in favour of the british ships with their superior radar and fire control but a lucky hit could change things dramatically.
this seems wrong as the capabilities of german radar and firecontrol were at least comparable to their british counterparts.
I agree there was a rough parity from 1941 on. I'm not at all sure that the British firecontrol overall was actually quite as good as the German, much less superior.

As to the question of radar directed fire, a detailed answer would depend on the time frame. 42? 43? 44? 45? Nonetheless, one side isn't going to hold a real significant advantage during any time frame following 1940. If it occurs during 42 it could well be the case that the Germans have a blind fire capability and the British do not. It's not likely that combat exceeding 30km will take place regardless. The British always considered Type 284M as having sufficient range (29K yards) for the longest ranges they typicaly wished to seek battle (which was 28k yards). AFAIK, their doctrine of closing range and forcing a decision-one way or the other- was still in place.

If we go to a late war scenario one factor could be the inability of the Type 274 to spot the fall of shot.
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz meeting Vanguard and KGV

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:44 pm

Regarding Radar capabilities ther are some open ended questions.

As the war progressed the use of Radar/Funkmess shows increased effectivenes of input data for fire control.

On the other hand the opponents were developing electronic counter measures
-jamming radar
-creating decoys
-reduce radar retroreflection

In aerial warfare the US "carpet" drastically reduced effectivenes of german blind AA-fire.
And also the channel dash was flanked by ECM.
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