Graf Spee vs. Cumberland

[RF]

Around early October 1939 Graf Spee's seaplane sighted Cumberland in close proximity to Graf Spee and almost on a collision course with her.

Langsdorf, in accordance with orders to avoid battle took avoiding action.

However, disregarding the orders would or should a more enterprising captain have engaged Cumberland? Here there was only one British ship and not three as at the River Plate battle and on paper the 11 inch guns should be decisive?

[marcelo_malara]

Surely he could have sunk Cumberland. But his orders were for commerce raiding, so he was right in avoiding action. One less cruiser was nothing for Britain, but a damaged pocket BB so far from home would lead to her lost.

[paul mercer]

Glad he did, my stepfather was a young leiutenent or captain in the marine turret on Cumberland at the time!
I've still got a piece of wood panelling taken from the wardroom when they cleared all the flamable bits out when they expected to go into action at the river Plate.
My stepfather told me that after she started to blow up they all clambered onto the turret top and cheered, because after hearing about the damage Graf Spee had inflicted on Exeter, they were under no illusions of an easy battle.

[Bgile]

I agree with others that he could have sunk Cumberland.

The big problem for him is Cumberland is a very dangerous opponent, capable of penetrating GS's armor. Any serious damage that far from home and he is in real trouble. That of course is why he engaged Exeter first.

[Gary]

Graf Spee should be able to destroy or at least cripple Cumberland.

If we look at Exeter, Graf Spee had beaten her to a pulp, Exeter managed only 3 hits in return I believe.
If this sitution had happened to Cumberland alone then she would be dead meat.
Cumberlands shells are capable of inflicting harm on the Graf but the damage to Cumberland from the 11 inch cannons would be far worse.

I think it was Tiornu that said "11 inch guns are pea shooters for a Battleship but Sledgehammers in the world of cruisers".
That will be the decisive factor.

[Karl Heidenreich]

I agree that Graf Spee could be able, on paper, to destroy the Cumberland.
The problem is that is on paper only.
The Sidney must be able to sunk Kormoran, no sweat at all.
The Graf Spee must be able to destroy her three hunters at River Plate.
The Hood and PoW must be able to destroy Bismarck.
The PoW and Repulse must be able to stop the Japanese Invasion Forces.
The Japanese must be able to win at Midway.
And so on...

In this case it dependes on the captain, if he us bold and coraugeous enough then Cumberland is kaput.

[RF]

I think Karl is right.

If Langsdorf had sunk Cumberland with long range plunging fire, there is also every possibility that he would have learned sufficiently to have altered his tactics at the River Plate action - to use long range plunging fire against Exeter, with Ajax and Achilles out of range. It also negates incidentally the one weakness in the Graf Spee armament, the ineffectiveness of the 15 cm. guns.

There is a further aside to all this.

Commander Paul Ascher was on board both Graf Spee and Bismarck. Would it have been possible, from this scenario, for him to have influenced Lutjens to have opened fire first at the Denmark Strait battle, thereby preventing the damage caused by POW?

[Bgile]

RF,

What do you consider to be long range? Remember a cruiser is a much smaller target at long range than a battleship because of her much narrower beam. You would expect fewer hits for this reason, and AGS might expend most of her ammo without sinking Cumberland and taking some 8" hits in return which might make her unable to continue her cruise.

Also, you used the word "plunging" as though that is significant in this context and I don't think it is.

Don't get me wrong, I think AGS has a big advantage, it's just that I wouldn't automatically assume extreme range is the answer. If it hadn't been for the light cruisers, she would have come away from engaging Exeter fairly well.

[Gary]

"Plunging fire" is an ideal way for a battleship to attack another battleship when her heavy shells cannot penetrate the heavy vertical armour.

This doesnt apply so much with cruisers.
The Graf's guns can penetrate Cumberlands vertical armour at will.

However, Plunging fire may have a better chance of a shell finding its way into a machinery space?
I dont know.

[paul mercer]

Given that range finding was not as sophisticated as it was later on, I would have thought that it would have been ill advised for AGS to indulge in long range fire because of the inevitable high ammunition expenditure per hit, bearing in mind that she could not easily replenish her stock.
I would have thought that 11" shells would penetrate armour anywhere on a cruiser, so she would not not need to use plunging fire.
Yes, a close range encounter with an 8" cruiser could cause problems, but not as much as she would to the cruiser - as Exeter found out!

[RF]

The idea of plunging fire is to disable with one hit - magazines, engine room, blow a hole in the keel etc.
A long range action does imply a high expenditure of ammunition, also the Cumberland would have a slightly higher speed advantage. This presumably is why Langsdorf wanted to close the range with Exeter quickly.
However at long range,providing the gunfire is accurate achieving the one devastating hit should not take too long. The important thing is that GS can attack without coming under fire itself and therefore avoiding damage.

With respect to ammunition, there should be sufficient for a long action.
Replenishment of ammunition stocks should be possible from Altmark, or failing that, Westerwald, which at that time was acting as the supply ship for Deutschland, in the North Atlantic.

[marcelo_malara]

blow a hole in the keel etc.

It seems that you believe that plunging fire is one with more than 60 degrees of falling angle, which is not actually the case. Angles of more than 30 degrees means that the shell was fired from an almost impossible distance.

[Bgile]

The idea of plunging fire is to disable with one hit - magazines, engine room, blow a hole in the keel etc.
A long range action does imply a high expenditure of ammunition, also the Cumberland would have a slightly higher speed advantage. This presumably is why Langsdorf wanted to close the range with Exeter quickly.
However at long range,providing the gunfire is accurate achieving the one devastating hit should not take too long. The important thing is that GS can attack without coming under fire itself and therefore avoiding damage.

With respect to ammunition, there should be sufficient for a long action.
Replenishment of ammunition stocks should be possible from Altmark, or failing that, Westerwald, which at that time was acting as the supply ship for Deutschland, in the North Atlantic.

In practical terms, the 11" gun doesn't outrange the 8" gun. Both weapons could fire as far as spotting would allow. AGS would be subject to this hypothetical "plunging fire" from Cumberland.

[marcelo_malara]

May be the naval mortar is coming back?

[RF]

Marcelo,

I wasn't thinking of vertical or near vertical fire, but a below decks detonation that blows a hole in the ships bottom.

Bgile,

At the River Plate battle the AGS opened fire at its maximum range and Exeter had to hold fire for about three minutes until it was in range.
If spotting is a problem the Germans had a seaplane for the job.