Ideal Rheinubung

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Ramius
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Post by Ramius »

Does anyone know what happened to Marschall after "his incident" with the Gniesenau :think: Was he even available for Ideal Rhine or was he like executed or exiled or something?
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Post by dougieo »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:
At 5:58 PE hit her at the tower base murdering hundreds of crewmen that were taking refuge there.

Kind regards.
murdering?
Ramius
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Post by Ramius »

I agree, the word murder is a little harsh. But anyway, let's get back to the Topic. I believe that had Marschall been commander, PoW would have been pummeled and Bismarck (and Tirpiz) would have been free to roam the Atlantic. :think:
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Post by dougieo »

providing they didnt send any silly messages home, very hard to find. Although the first convoy they attacked would provide the RN with a search area.

how many convoys would be at sea in the atlantic at the same time?

Might be a good idea for them to split up to maximise the headache for the RN
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Post by Ramius »

:lol: :lol: :lol: Oh no, The Tirpitz (or Bismarck) is coming!!! Let's just let them all flee for their lives and go un-escourted! PQ17, knock on wood :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by dunmunro »

Ramius wrote:I agree, the word murder is a little harsh. But anyway, let's get back to the Topic. I believe that had Marschall been commander, PoW would have been pummeled and Bismarck (and Tirpiz) would have been free to roam the Atlantic. :think:
As I recall, Marschall aggressively pursued and sank Glorious, but this permitted her escort to torpedo Scharnhorst in return. It was only through extremely good fortune that the RN did not subsequently locate the damaged Scharnhorst and destroy her. Similar tactics by Marschall during Rheinubung would have been equally perilous. If the KM waited for the Fall to execute Rheinubung, then the RN could have rushed DoY into service, and brought ArK Royal and Furious north, to sail with the home fleet. This would have given the Home Fleet 3 fast BBs, and 2 BCs and Nelson, while Rodney would have been fresh from her short USA refit.
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Post by Ramius »

dunmunro wrote: As I recall, Marschall aggressively pursued and sank Glorious, but this permitted her escort to torpedo Scharnhorst in return. It was only through extremely good fortune that the RN did not subsequently locate the damaged Scharnhorst and destroy her. Similat tactics by Marschall during Rheinubung would have been equally perilous. If the KM waited for the Fall to execute Rheinubung, then the RN could have rushed DoY into service, and brought ArK Royal and Furious north, to sail with the home fleet. This would have given the Home Fleet 3 fast BBs, and 2 BCs, while Rodney would have been fresh from her short USA refit.
Tirpitz was finished with her construction and had only cosmetic things and training to complete. PoW was in about the same condition when they sent her out after Bismarck. Tirpitz could have finished her training on a few convoys ( :lol: ). Marschall had no pesky escorts to deal with in this operation (if you disclude Norfolk and Suffolk, which didn't join the fray anyway in real life) so he did not have some of the risks his brilliant move had against HMS Glorious. Anyway, even if Bismarck and Tirpitz were to be sunk in our Ideal Rhineburg, they should not only take out Hood (which I say should be destroyed as she was in real life) but also as many other enemy warships as possible down with them :think: I still believe that if Marschall had been in command instead of Lutjens, the Germans would have had allot more sucess, instead of an eye for an eye that Lutjens did for Hood (helping to result in British revenge against Bismarck)
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Post by dunmunro »

Ramius wrote:

Tirpitz was finished with her construction and had only cosmetic things and training to complete. PoW was in about the same condition when they sent her out after Bismarck. irpitz could have finished her training on a few convoys ( :lol: ). Marschall had no pesky escorts to deal with in this operation (if you disclude Norfolk and Suffolk, which didn't join the fray anyway in real life) so he did not have some of the risks his brilliant move had against HMS Glorious. Anyway, even if Bismarck and Tirpitz were to be sunk in our Ideal Rhineburg, they should not only take out Hood (which I say should be destroyed as she was in real life) but also as many other enemy warships as possible down with them :think: I still believe that if Marschall had been in command instead of Lutjens, the Germans would have had allot more sucess, instead of an eye for an eye that Lutjens did for Hood (helping to result in British revenge against Bismarck)
That's not true:

"Gunnery trials off Rügen Island in June 1941 showed up defects which kept her in harbour throughout July and August; not until 20 September 1941 did she carry out the final successful shoots, after which, she was ready for operations."
from:
http://bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/history/tirconstr.html

But even if we modify the timeline and make Tirpitz ready, the RN was tracking both ships progress and would have carried out countermeasures, such as:

Trading Victorious for Ark Royal, and giving the Ark to Tovey. Creating a slow squadron of BBs based in Iceland, maybe the two Nelsons and a couple of Rs and Furious to block the DS, and forming a fast division with KGV, PoW, Hood, Repulse and Renown, based in Scapa Flow.

Divert some of the squadrons ineffectually bombing Germany at night, to day work to better track and attack u-boats and surface raiders.

The RN and the UK still had lots of resources in May 1941 that could have been re-allocated.
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Post by Bgile »

given time the RN might have put submarines there. Not sure why they didn't unless they were concerned that they would attack Norfolk or Suffolk by mistake.
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Post by lwd »

Ramius wrote:...
2. In full coordination the Tirpitz + Hipper, commanded by Lutjens, cross the Kiel Canal and steam at dusk the same evening the Bismarck and PE are at the Norwegian Fiord.
This means that the British will be awair of Tirpitz and Hipper being at sea very soon after they are aware that Bismark is. They will then take this into acount in their operations.
...
4. Tirpitz + Hipper follow Bismarck + PE some sixty to eighty miles behind. Norfolk and Suffolk find and follow Bismark and the Prinz while Tirpiz and Hipper slide into the two cruiser's blind spot
How are they going to find the "blind spot" from beyond the horizon? Note that the blind spot moves when the cruisers move.
Bismarck turns around to port and the Prinz to starboard, and Tirpiz turns to starboard and Hipper to port, the cruisers would U-turn trying to escape the attack and run into the Lonely Queen and Hipper who were in their blind spot.
Even if they could find the "blind spot" as soon as they turned they'd bick up the other 2 German ships. By the way how are you going to coordinate this? Radio?
...Germans then sink them without the Admiralty knowing what happened and that the Tirpiz group is there.
Even if they hadn't picked up the Tirpitz before this there is no way they're going to sink two cruisers without a message getting out.
5. At dawn the following day the Graf Zepplin (complete or not) does a reverse Channel Dash and sails through the Channel to France to get aircraft and construction complete.
With all the recon elements out good chance she is spotted in time for RN DDs and MTBs to sink her.
....
I believe that we should just pick up the debates at the point at the Battle of Denmark Strait where Hood is blown to smithereens, Prince of Wales is on the retreat, and Tirpiz and Hipper are coming up to help pummel PoW.

The only thing we technically did to this THEORETICAL discussion so far is insert Tirpiz and Hipper to the picture (and maybe sink Norfolk and Suffolk in the process).
Denmark strait isn't going to play out the same if the British even know Tirptiz is ready to sail. Put her at sea and things change even more dramatically.
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Ramius wrote:Does anyone know what happened to Marschall after "his incident" with the Gniesenau :think: Was he even available for Ideal Rhine or was he like executed or exiled or something?
What incident would that be?

I'll take a wild guess here. If you're thinking about the Gneisenau being torpedoed, 20 June, then this did not occur under Admiral Marschall's flag as he switched place with Günther Lütjens about a week before this occured. Marschall was given a more or less "inactive" command at home after the conclusion of Operation Juno. The torpedo hit was not an incident on behalf of the Fleet Commander but due to unfortunate circumstances in relation to another sortie (Operation Dora) including the southbound light cruiser Nürnberg, returning from Narvik to Trondheim. Captain Ingram aboard HMS Clyde was on the lookout for this reported light cruiser when he spotted the Gneisenau instead. A very fortunate moment for Ingram although three of his torpedoes failed to find their target. The fourth barely did.
Ramius wrote:Marschall had no pesky escorts to deal with in this operation (if you disclude Norfolk and Suffolk, which didn't join the fray anyway in real life) so he did not have some of the risks his brilliant move had against HMS Glorious.
The lack of eyes in the crow's nest aboard HMS Glorious, the failure to pass on vital decrypted messages from Bletcheley Park fast enough to it's proper destination and to have airplanes ready on deck, ready to be launched in case of such a situation were perhaps the greatest contibutors to the successful move of Admiral Marschall. She was caught totally off guard thus you could say he met far less resistance than potential. A chap named Vernon Howland has a good web-article on this if you're further interested.

http://www.warship.org/no11994.htm
Ramius wrote:Anyway, even if Bismarck and Tirpitz were to be sunk in our Ideal Rhineburg, they should not only take out Hood (which I say should be destroyed as she was in real life) but also as many other enemy warships as possible down with them
The only solution to this hypothesis appears to be the addition of a larger hammer each time an obstacle is met. Well, how do you support the mission objectives? Operation Rheinubung had a set of objectives to accomplish but this ideal German fleet sounds more like a task force than a bunch of raiders. I'll be the boring guy here and say that the ideal Rheinubung could take place as it did, with only the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen, given that you actually exclude the entire Denmark Strait encounter. Zero detection is the ideal Rheinubung.
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Post by Ramius »

Getting into the Atlantic without detection was an objective, but not one that was probable. They ran into the Swedish cruiser Gotland, I don't think sinking her was an option and they did not know she was there (so they could not avoid her) and her superiors would report their wherabouts to the Admiralty. :negative:

I know zero detection would have been a pro of the operation, but it was not worth it if the two battleships got out undetected, and two days later sank a convoy only for the Admiralty to get the news that she was out. I think the Germans did the best of what they were given until Lutjens was stupid enough to send that very short (it was only 30 minutes long) message to Group West, resulting in the British getting their bearing after Lutjens (one of his only brilliant moves) lost them. I do not think that would have been a problem with Marschall, for he probably would have kept his big mouth shut unlike his replacement, realizing the need for as much stealthiness as possible. If Bismarck and Tirpitz were to get out, or sunk, they should have taken advantage of as much as they could with two new battleships. :shock:
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Ramius wrote:Getting into the Atlantic without detection was an objective, but not one that was probable. They ran into the Swedish cruiser Gotland, I don't think sinking her was an option and they did not know she was there (so they could not avoid her) and her superiors would report their wherabouts to the Admiralty. :negative:
...which may be a major reason for Lütjens makin a stop at Bergen, 21 May, to notify Gruppe Nord (Admiral Carls) and possibly Gruppe Vest (Admiral Saalwächter) of this observation from a supposedly neutral ship. Lütjens couldn't pin his decisions only in the belief that the Swedish would maintain their neutrality and not report to London. He was known as a cautious commander so why should he suddenly be more careless at this point? Do we know he gave it less priority or do we assume it? Was the decision to proceed with the sortie of his doing or was it made by the Admirals ashore?
Ramius wrote:I know zero detection would have been a pro of the operation, but it was not worth it if the two battleships got out undetected, and two days later sank a convoy only for the Admiralty to get the news that she was out.
The vastness of the ocean does offer some space to act or hide. The British problems would be greater than just detection. They'd have to organize a force strong and fast enough to corner and defeat them. To do this, they'd have to cover an area at the size of the North Atlantic and have several ships capable of high speed and armed with strong enough guns and all of this had to be present at the exact place and time after detection. I know the Royal Navy was great but this would have been too great a stretch of their forces. I guess they'd have to go for the supply ships and starv the Germans out of the Atlantic.
Ramius wrote:I think the Germans did the best of what they were given until Lutjens was stupid enough to send that very short (it was only 30 minutes long) message to Group West, resulting in the British getting their bearing after Lutjens (one of his only brilliant moves) lost them
Lütjens was surprised by the capacity of the British Radar sets. His long message might originate in the simple fact that he saw it very unlikely that he'd managed to shake them off. However, I agree he should have kept his silence. The message did nevertheless not result in his demise. An airborne torpedo did. I do not support any critisism that suggest Lütjens was responsible for the Bismarck being sunk, neither do I judge him without trying to understand his motives.

The British ships sailing in the wake of the Bismarck after the encounter in the Denmark Strait would see she was leaking oil. One of the alternatives that undeniably would have to be raised from this sighting was that Bismarck would need a port to repair. Of course, they couldn't know the extent of damage but France still must have been one of the options already at this point.
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Post by Ramius »

The message he sent to Group West was directly responsible for the Bismarck's destruction. It allowed the British to locate her with that two point location method of theirs, then the Catalina found them visually in the approximate area of that radio emissions search, therefore the Ark Royal's aircraft knew where to find her, resulting in the cripling hit to the stern. Lutjens was directly responsible, as the one in command and as the one who sent the message to Group West, for the sinking (scuttling) of the Bismarck :negative:
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Post by Terje Langoy »

Ramius wrote:The message he sent to Group West was directly responsible for the Bismarck's destruction.
No, a successful torpedo-attack from a swordfish was responsible for that.
Ramius wrote:It allowed the British to locate her with that two point location method of theirs, then the Catalina found them visually in the approximate area of that radio emissions search
A two point location provide a line, not a spesific area. If you read my post above then I stated that one of the alternatives of Bismarck's intentions (France) would have been apparent immediately after the Denmark Strait encounter. Besides, bearing alone wouldn't give the British what they needed, neither would the detection. As I also stated above the British would face even more problems after this. As the Bismarck was spotted she was far ahead of Tovey's forces and although he knew where she was he could not yet intercept and force battle upon her. As long as the Bismarck maintained speed and heading she would ultimately arrive safely in France and he could not do anything about this at that moment. It is not of Lütjens doing that the Bismarck would be slowed down. The radio message may be a serious blunder but not to these proportions that you seem to give it.
Ramius wrote:therefore the Ark Royal's aircraft knew where to find her, resulting in the cripling hit to the stern.
From your post, the British moves seems quite easy and well planned. If the airplane pilots knew where to find her, then why did they mistake their target during the first run? The British were cluthing at straws at this point. But even the failed attack (HMS Sheffield) would work against the Bismarck as it resulted in a fortunate change of torpedoes. Things were not so easy and simple as your post appear to display. Heck, the British themselves could hardly believe their own ears when receiving the report that the Bismarck was heading in their direction.
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